Cardio proportions

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Smaug97, May 3, 2016.

  1. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Well, in the interest of balance, here is what Greg Nuckols says about the meta study I just quoted.


    "Now that I’ve made aerobic training sound like the best thing since sliced bread, it’s time to discuss the drawbacks. The most obvious is the 'interference effect.'

    A lot of the ways your body tries to adapt to aerobic training are in direct opposition to the ways your body tries to adapt to resistance training. Different metabolic pathways (AMPK vs. mTOR, though that’s not as problematic as most people think), using energy toward muscle protein synthesis vs. mitochondrial biogenesis, upregulation of aerobic vs. glycolytic enzymes, etc.

    However, rumors of the interference effect, it seems, have been greatly exaggerated. At least, the meta-analysis on the subject found that it’s not aerobic exercise per se that causes the interference effect, but rather running in particular, probably related to the repeated eccentric stress of running. Cycling, on the other hand, did not hinder strength and muscle gains when combined with strength training."
     
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    [QUOTEFurthermore, interval training is much more “costly” in terms of recovery, related to those central fatigue factors I briefly touched on earlier. Hopping on a stationary bike for 30 minutes with your HR at 130-135 won’t really affect your training very much tomorrow. Doing a few tough rounds of intervals (assuming you’re going hard enough to actually make them effective) can really put a dent in your ability to recover from your strength training, though. The idea of improving your conditioning in less time while doing fun movements sounds great on paper, but you pay for these advantages in how intervals can negatively impact the rest of your training.[/QUOTE]
    Got to love the qoute function
     
  3. liero

    liero Valued Member

    This is a really interesting conversation guys. Lots of good opinion. AND the stats to back it up on either side.

    The issue is always how does the average Smaug87, our faithful OP, incorporate this into his program?

    Wants to build a bit of muscle, doing his gym? Doesn't want to become a fatty. It's relevant enough to my situation as well to bring the convo back.

    For example:
    A long time ago I had a coach who suggested going for 12-15 minute jogs 3x a week for 8-12 weeks, and trying to push further every time on how far you could go. After the initial "adaption" then that dropped to 1x 30-50 minute run per week and 2 sprint sessions per week. These sprint sessions increased over 12 months so that we were doing gut wrenching sprints for 40-50 minutes per session (with substantial rest time).Towards the end, and I was going for a 1 hr run on my light workout day and doing 2x sprints per week as my base conditioning. Then hitting the gym 2-3 times per week for strength. AND TKD training 5+ times per week. But it was a gradual build up, and I was training for comps rather than mass.

    I don't think anyone would argue against integrating both Steady State Cardio and HIIT. Right? But does there have to be a build up so you don't loose "dem gainz" in the gym?
     
  4. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Mixing steady state and intervals i wouldn't argue with, what type of intervals well that's another matter.

    You can use intervals right off the bat, something like extensive tempo intervals as charlie francis had his sprinters do is a good place to start. He had his guys run 10-12 seconds at 70% or so of their maximum, then rest a minute and repeat for 20-30 minutes. Stick a heart rate montior on someone doing this kind of stuff and you will see it stays between 120-150bpm which is exactly the same zone as you would suggest someone stays in when doing steady state cardio for the same time.

    (Interesting to note that one of the most well known sprint coaches coaching some of the most explosive and powerful athletes on the planet believed in aerobic training as far back as the 70s and it didn't harm their strength and power development.)

    You can mix in other types or aerobic intervals, such as 5-10 seconds on a spin bike with the resistance turned up high, resting until hr comes down to 130bpm and repeat, or doing short hill sprints in the same manner, and again your average HR over a 20 minute period would be the same as if you did a steady state programme.

    Both the above can be added in alongside LSD or steady state work without any real negative impact on strength development.

    Adding in HIIT is harder to plan, the recovery time is greater, the impact on the body more severe, i would probably plan in one session to start with at the end of the training week, so on a friday, leaving you the weekend to recover before hitting a hard weight session. And because of the impact it has and the way it effects the body its probably a good idea to phase true HIIT in and out of training over an 8 week period, starting with steady state and easier intervals, as your body because fitter add HIIT in towards the end of the 8 weeks, then recover for a week and repeat.

    (Id also note that doing sprint training with substantial rest probably isnt the same as HIIT as most people would describe it. )

    It all comes down to what you can sustain in the long run, not what some text book or trainer tells your is optimal, someone made the comment if cardio is fun your aren't doing it right, which is silly, if training isnt fun you wont sustain it in the long run,

    I remember a very good trainer and natural body builder saying that he gets success from his clients because he gets them to do things that fits in with their life style and which they can maintain in the long term, 45 minutes fast walking everyone can fit in and do, 30 minutes jogging might be too demanding for some overweight people, and running hard sprints impossible for them.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  5. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    The great thing about research is that there are often opposing schools of thought , each with evidence supporting their point of view, and nothing completely supporting one versus the other.

    With regards to the study discussing how to combine or not combine the following quote seemed apt-

    "Interestingly, strength decrements have not been reported after longer durations of concurrent training, meaning this phenomenon could characterize the early adaptive response to concurrent exercise [31, 42, 95]. However, compromised rate of force development [47, 48, 84] as well as force at high velocities [96], further underscores diminished maximal power production with concurrent training [57], which could be of particular concern for competitive athletes. The recommendation for curtailing muscle function deficits with concurrent exercise is fundamentally similar to the strategy for optimizing hypertrophy. "

    Article: Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy with Concurrent Exercise Training: Contrary Evidence for an Interference Effect

    Kevin A. Murach · James R. Bagley

    Mar 2016 · Sports Medicine

    :' )

    LFD
     
  6. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    I wonder what's a good starting point for someone to build his stamina.

    I haven't worked out for more than a year and cardio was always a problem for me and my training.

    Should I start with running 3 times a week at a slow steady pace for 45 minutes and after a couple of months add some interval training like sprints or fartlek?

    Running for so long seems somewhat tedious to me. Usually the goal at the LSD running is to eventually cover more distance in those 45 minutes or working to lower the heart? What do you guys do?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    If you want cardio for a particular sport, your best bet initially is to do as much of that sport as possible.

    If you currently aren't training - then cycling is a better way to start from scratch because it is low impact. It is really really easy to go too far too fast with running and end up injured.
     
  8. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    I love running, I really do. But don't run is my advice.

    If you want to call yourself a runner...go and run.
    If you want to do 5ks, 10ks, marathons, triathlons...go and run.
    If you want to improve your cardio...there's a ton of safer options.

    Running is incredibly effective, but it is heavy, especially when you start cranking up the speed and distance and the risk of injury is high. I'd recommend you do other stuff (bike, skip, row, swim, a sport like football or squash) or do a few things and mix them up. If you want to do some running, then don't do it as your main activity. Do it once a week or once every fourth session or something.

    If you find running tedious then you won't stick with it long enough to see any real results. Like with martial arts, do something you enjoy and will stick with.

    If you really want to run and are out of shape, Couch to 5k is a good program. I started with C25k and was doing 20k runs after 6 months or something. I like the constant pain that a 2 hour plus run gives you. :)

    Edit: I will add I have a knackered IT band and haven't ran for two or so years.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  9. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    This. Very much this.

    Find what you like and do it as well as you can. Accept that what you like may change, but keep doing something, well.

    Mitch
     
  10. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    As you can tell there are differing opinions on the matter lol

    Personally id suggest doing 30 minutes of steady state three times a week, and increasing the volume rather than the intensity, keep your HR between 130-150bpm
    What this will do is force your heart to grow bigger, specifically the left ventricle which means with each breath you will be putting moiré oxygen into the blood stream and thus be able to work longer and harder before going anaerobic. If you work too hard or with too much intensity your heart will beat too quick for this growth in the left ventricle to happen, what you will do is raise your blood pressure and thus pressure within the heart and over time this will lead to a thickening of the cardiac walls.
    what will happen is you will thicken the walls is you will be pumping blood around the body faster, but you won’t be increasing the volume of what you can produce, just how you use it……and you will have a very hard time increasing the size of the heart in future.
    It’s really Eccentric hypertrophy V Concentric hypertrophy. You want to build a base with Eccentric hypertrophy methods, steady state work, and then when necessary move to more aggressive methods
    use resting HR and HR recovery as a guide to how well you are doing

    The good news is your heart is pretty stupid, it doesn't know what you are doing to raise your HR, just that it is raised, running is normally used because its relatively easy to gage and keep a level of intensity you desire, but if you have a heart rate monitor that doesn't matter. You can use shadow boxing, core work, medicine ball work, dynamic flexibility circuits, bike work anything really, you can mix and match 10 mins of say skipping, 10 mins of shadow boxing, 10 mins of bike work.

    if that doesn't work for you you can sue aerobic intervals like the tempo method i wrote about earlier on, as long as your HR is in the right zone it really doesn't matter what you do
     
  11. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    Thanks a lot for the responses guys! :)
    It seems you all agree that running can be a lot more dangerous than it seems.
    I live near a public swimming pool so, I could follow that direction.

    Icefield, the concentric and eccentric training of the heart you mentioned is pretty interesting!
    I am the kind of person who has to know more or less how things work before doing anything and this bit of info made aerobic and anaerobic training a lot more palpable.
     
  12. Smaug97

    Smaug97 Valued Member

    Hey guys- so so far i havn't done anything drastically different to my routine; at the gym (3 times a week) i'm usually doing 10-20 minutes of treadmill/ rowing machine but thinking cross trainer may be a good bet- also i've taken to running to my classes which gives me around 2.3 miles to run/trudge tiredly on a thursday, is this enough or should i really be doing more?
     

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