to drill or not to drill...

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Knee Rider, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

  2. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I meant why assume that the principle is not ingrained in me.

    Because this isn't the focus of drilling and is less the focus of isolation sparring so those ideas don't need emphasising.

    you said this...

    .. which implies that you think one comes before the other and that drilling is the most suitable tool for developing the understanding to utilise them against resistance.

    I don't see how that is the case especially since as I stated in my edit 'pressure in terms of both speed and weight, requires timing and body sensitivity to actually implement' which is totally lacking from dead drilling/repetitions.

    With all due respect, this is factually wrong.

    I think you need to be more familiar with the concepts of drilling that are being discussed in the video and that are shared within the community. The two distinct forms of drilling and isolation sparing are common to anyone who practices a grappling art. the type of drills demonstrated here at 1:23ish -

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iguukb-LA8"]Issue #2 - Attack Drill - Armbar Drill - YouTube[/ame]

    is what we mean when we talk about 'drilling'.
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Knee Rider, I was talking about the video contents, not your personal knowledge.

    By drills I mean scripted, by sparring I mean free form (but with rules). There are also sparring drills that are scripted but allow for limited free form after the script ends. The sparring drills is basically isolation sparring.

    As for common ideas of drilling, I started cross-training in BJJ in 1998 and I started with Vale Tudo techniques, so I learned with the striking, if the hands were down you would get punched in the face (although with control). I may have different ideas of what drilling is, but the type of drilling you show in

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Iguukb-LA8"]Issue #2 - Attack Drill - Armbar Drill - YouTube[/ame]

    We would always follow with the training partner adding progressive resistance in a scripted manner. First we always take their posture, and the partner would try to retain posture or if we broke posture try to post out. I never called this progressive resistance isolation sparring... it was part of drilling. Sparring was free form and we took whatever technique was given to us. The drills would help us learn to set up techniques so we had more control over what was given to us.

    What do you call the following? To me this is basically a drill because both the people are involved. One drilling the technique and the other going with it but feeling out where there are holes in the technique for counter.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4np0_tfl9Qs"]BJJ No Gi escape drills - YouTube[/ame]

    Notice the emphasis on fundamentals and principles.

    I think it is very important that the training partner is able to test out the holes in the technique and transitions to provide feedback and also to learn how to counter. The principles remove the holes. It is important that both you and training partner learn from the drill. It is never one-sided.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    In regards to the above, the principle of constant pressure does not require timing or body sensitivity. It actually is used to remove timing and body sensitivity from the equation, making technique much more simple.

    Timing is more necessary when you have distance, making things more complex. Once your remove the space, now it is a matter of constant contact. The principle of constant pressure is where you apply that contact and how. It also is how you change from one contact point to the next. The principle of pressure is using the law of inverse squares, half the area is four times the pressure, one forth the area is sixteen times the pressure.

    The reason I joked around about your alias knee rider is that dropping 90% of your weight on the opponent's ribs using just your knee really hurts them. I use it as an example of the concept of pressure. We even put striking pads in the way and you can feel the force through the four inches of padding. Although always careful not to cause permanent damage.
     
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Rebel wado. I will give you a response more fully tomorrow. For now I'll just say if you think there is no timing or body sensitivity involved in grappling I don't really know where to start.
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Looking forward. Why do you jump to conclusions so quickly I want to know?

    No timing or body sensitivity in grappling, you must be crazy. :bang: (not intended as an insult, just joking with you.) I said to simplify technique. You simplify technique by removing dependencies on timing and reaction. One way to do this is by apply constant pressure principle correctly. Constant pressure shortens the transitions. Timing comes into play when your transitions are larger, such as when there is more space to work with.

    Since you implied you know everything about constant pressure I specifically spoke in terms for someone that knew what I was talking about. But it occurs to me that the term may be ambiguous.

    Here is what I mean by constant pressure principle: https://chubejitsu.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/bjj-tips-and-concepts-constant-pressure/ <-- Yes this

    The following is NOT what I mean, although constant attack is another related principle, it isn't the principle of constant pressure: http://bjjtoday.net/applying-constant-pressure-in-bjj/ <-- Not this
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    This conversation seriously needs agreed common definitions.

    Might I suggest

    1) dead rote repetitions - dead drilling
    2) closely defined repetitions with timing, energy / motion and choices - isolation rolling.

    Otherwise we'll all go round in circles claiming 1 is 2 but sometimes 3 unless it's an odd day.
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    This helps. So dead drilling is basically solo drills that happen to have a partner. These are basically fundamentals.
    They are to get the basic movements down, not the technique.

    They are only good if you practice them correctly, otherwise you can mess up your muscle memory. Kind of like shadow boxing. Maybe five or six minutes of this stuff as a warm-up, but otherwise, work on them outside of class time. Can do hundreds of reps on your own training time, but don't waist class time beyond a few minutes. IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Dead Pool, what do you call this type of drilling? This is how we drilled to apply the principle of constant pressure to arm bar:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCroeMhllQs"]Nic Gregoriades - BJJ Building Blocks - Straight Arm Lock from Guard - BJJ Weekly #060 - YouTube[/ame]

    We would repeat this over and over again. This is not working the fundamentals of hip movement, it is working the technique.
     
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That is dead drilling vs a single pressure, there's no timing, its nessasary to get the initial idea and key point down, but that'll take 5 to 10 minutes max. Id then work guard specific rolling for the rest of the technical session, so I could see where I'm weak, and incorporate it into the larger whole off my guard game, and see how other attacks and pressures fit.

    PS the Armbar is fundamentally applying the bridge, the shrimp and spin, there is a lot of very fundamental hip movements within that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2015
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Essentially yes, although what is practised depends on the teacher, anything can be practised, in any way. And often the wrong things are practised via the wrong methods. Naturals will still pick it up, but those of us who arnt naturals, will struggle without optimum training methods.
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That's fits into my definition. So we have resistance in this "dead drilling vs a single pressure" though. At each transition point, the training partner resists lightly to test it out. This resistance progressively increases. At the point that they counter or escape if your technique is sloppy. This isn't sparring so the resistance is only to show holes in the student's application that need to be fixed.

    Train until student gets it (understands how to apply the principle). This could be one minute or it could be the whole session, it isn't about the technique it is about the principles. There is no time limit. IMHO.

    The bridge, shrimp, and spin are fundamentals that can be drilled separately from the arm bar drill. Just like doing footwork drills.
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    "For something to be truly Alive in what we do then it has have three key elements: movement, timing and energy (resistance). If you are missing any one of these then it is not Alive." From the above link.

    If your applying movement, timing and energy, then its an isolation roll, not full sparring, but a halfway point used to develop skill.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2015
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The most important factor in most situations is going to be experience. The closer to the real thing, the more applicable experience is gained. This is why sparring, aliveness in training, etc. is so important.

    However, to improve on technique requires a strong grasp of fundamentals and principles. That's why I use the terms scripted and progressive resistance. They are independent of each other. There is a whole area of dead drills, as you call them, that supplement aliveness.

    I remember talking about this back in the late 1980s. Only then we used ideas like "committed attack" and determination. A committed attack was supposed to be how realistic the attack is. Determination was the amount of drive or resistance you provided. They were not the same thing. When we held focus pads for striking, we were to move around like we were sparring. This is aliveness in training. Determination was basically how much fighting you were willing to do or the resistance, amount of force, etc.

    So I use "scripted" instead of terms like aliveness. If something is completely unscripted, then it is as close the realistic as you can get. If it is totally scripted, then it is basically your dead drills.

    Within the dead drills however, you still have control on the speed and amount resistance/force that can be applied. You can script points where the opponent actively resists for a short time before moving to the next phase. This is one important method for learning principles such as the principle of constant pressure.

    The variety of scripts is great. You can add a training knife to the scripted drill, for example, and at points partner tries to cut their way out, or tries to draw a concealed weapon, or allow the partner to try to slap you on the head at points, etc.

    There is so much more to scripted training when you combine it with resistance that is used to remove the sloppiness in technique and to promote the understanding of principles.
     
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Where I teach, about half our drilling would fit under isolation sparring. About a quarter would be conditioning and fundamentals (such as footwork, muscle memory, and movement drills). And about a quarter under the very strange category of "dead drills" but what I call scripted.

    I just think the term dead drills doesn't fit the scripted "test things out" type of drills we do that reduce the timing. This is different than having no timing. Rather we take something that requires timing and we simplify it to reduce the dependency on timing. It's basically playing the take away game. You learn to take away the opponent's ability to use timing to counter your application. The other piece is learning to use the opponent's energy against them rather than saying no energy.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I should have said that I've read that before but it didn't hurt for me to read it again. Of course aliveness in training is just normal training for me because combat sports just incorporates aliveness in training.

    I think the piece about scripted drills that I come from is that they are experience based, not done because they have always been done a certain way. That's probably why I don't like the term dead drills. I don't mind the term dead patterns however. So what I'm saying is that the patterns are always changing to find ways to best understand the principles. Looking at the three I's from Matt Thornton's article (Introduce, Isolate, Integrate), I see scripted drills as part of how integration influences introduction. I work backwards from integration, to isolation, back to introduction. So it isn't one directional, but bidirectional. Many of the patterns come from personal experience and are continuously being updated. Only the principles stay the same.

    The working back from experience/integration to introduction is I feel the missing piece that emphasizes the learning of principles rather than patterns.
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    The I method obviously changes drills from experience, its just in class doing it from 1 to 3 in a liner fashion is much much better for the learning process. It's also uses all the main learning styles so will suit the majority of students.

    There's other modes of training too, you can set up mini experiments in class and test different hypotheses out, although how valid the results are obviously depend on a few factors.

    Rote learning is just not that efficient on its own.

    As an example, due to a injury I've been training Judo with only light standing randori' for a year, my skill base has widened, but I wouldn't say I've actually got that much better at throwing, but I have set the stage to get better easier in the future. Is it optimum no, is it still of benefit to me, yes.
     
  19. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Ok here goes, there is a lot to wade through and a lot of points of contention, misconception, crossed wires and general mess.

    firstly, I apologise for posting defensively and for misconstruing the tone of your original post, Rebel Wado.
    Secondly, I have read both the links you provided re constant pressure and you evidently are talking about what I thought you were talking about. I fully understand the principle and still hold contention over your point regarding the removal of timing and body awareness/sensitivity.
    Thirdly, semantics and lack of shared reference - terminology wise - is bogging this discussion down tremendously.

    I'd offer this distinction in terms based on their use in the original video:

    'drilling': rote repetition in high number of technique sequences using a compliment partner ie 50 left and right side arm bars from guard then switch.

    'specific work': isolation sparring/progressively resistant drilling (same thing), in which the technique is being executed against a variable level of resistance in order to touch upon deficiencies in individual's technique execution ie armbar from guard till tap, escape or transition from position then reset. Resistance is not scripted and is based on partner's instincts the efficacy of which will vary depending on their level of received instruction.

    As I see it (and it was My OP) the original topic of discussion was this: Kit Dale thinks that his training time is better spent doing 'specific work' than 'drilling' what do you think?

    Rebel wado you raised the issue that:

    my contention is that these principles can be worked, are worked and should be worked regardless of if you are 'drilling' or doing 'specific work'. I believe that the idea of 'constant pressure' is not touched upon in the video as it is believed to be so implicit and intrinsic to the practice of those who the video is aimed at (whether 'drilling' or doing 'specific work'), that it doesn't need mentioning; in short it is assumed shared knowledge.

    Then we have gone on for a few pages looking at what is drilling. For the record I am more than familiar with the approach in the drills you posted and these are not an alternative to the proposed methods of practice in the original video but exist on exactly the same spectrum of progressively resistant isolation sparring ie 'specific work' as opposed to 'drilling' (drilling asn previously defined and as practised across the BJJ community and whose virtues are espoused by the like of multiple world champion Andre Galvao).

    I'm also contention with this statement:

    Timing and body sensitivity are crucial to establishing and maintaining effective pressure on a resisting human body of varying dimensions and attributes. This is unequivocally apparent when rolling or isolating something for 'specific work'. Taking the armbar as an example: I need to time my movements which deliver the pressure in order to establish the position and execute the technique. I need to feel my opponent's movements in order to feel the pressure I am attempting to implement upon posture and in isolating and trapping the arm as well as locating weaknesses in my own structure.

    Changing these pressures requires both sensitivity and timing regardless of space.

    maintaining constant contact and implementing optimal pressure results in a degree of immobilisation of your opponent and limits their defensive options to a more predictable set, however you still need to be aware of your own body in relation to theirs in order to establish this against resistance and in order to chose the optimal moment to switch pressures/positions without abandoning control (feel when you have fully established position).


    pressure is a combination of both of those things in my book. but again we are approaching a semantic impasse that doesn't need to hinder the content of the conversation.

    I believe there is pressure in weight distribution/control and pressure in tempo/frequency/variety of attack and that both are in symbiosis.

    I also feel these are fundamental basic concepts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2015
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9mPwWQuPMI[/ame]

    Eddie Bravo's reason for drilling.
     

Share This Page