to drill or not to drill...

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Knee Rider, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    came across this video today:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q01owjKe6VY"]Why I don't drill for BJJ anymore - YouTube[/ame]

    raised some interesting points.

    Personally I agree with the video and although I'm in favour of drilling movements (bridge, shrimp, sit-out, technical get up etc) I prefer isolation sparring techniques over drilling as soon as possible.

    what are your thoughts?
     
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    So he does live drilling and doesn't call it drilling?
     
  3. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Essentially yes.

    But it's more than a semantic distinction. It's an actual difference in how you divide your training time.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's just a progression, no?

    To begin with, you need lots of drilling to build muscle memory. Then, as you ingrain techniques you can increase the pressure and unpredictability in your isolation drilling/sparring. Also, as you progress, you assimilate new techniques more quickly, so less time is needed in the drilling phase.
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It depends on what your training,

    Drilling something with dead reps, that you know well and can pull off in rolling, can make you quicker, and more efficient, but only when your fresh, sloppy drilling means sloppy technique.

    Drilling something your not very good at is a terrible way to get better.

    Isolation rolling, is a much much better way to get better, as long as you know what you should be doing, and keep track of what went well, and what didn't.
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zas8pgG_2F4[/ame]


    Although kit is an athletic outlier, his theory of learning is solid
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    To the bold: again, it depends on your level of progression: how do you learn what you should be doing in the first place?

    If you can't drill something well "dead", are you going to fair any better when drilling it "live"?
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Youll know what your doing, via good coaching and feedback from isolation rolling, Because your mistakes will become immediately clear,
    So for eg
    1) get shown armbar from guard
    2) Dead drill armbar for a few minutes with partner pointing out any major flaws
    3) isolate roll the position, partner feeding the Armbar a few times in the round.
    4) over time you can increase the drilling of dead reps if you wish,
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That was my point. I thought you were talking about going straight into live drilling, which would produce some very sloppy, hit-and-miss results.
     
  10. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I think we would all agree that the initial introduction of technique should be based on compliment drilling but the time spent on this should be very very brief (10 reps each) in my opinion.

    The video itself is more concerned with the concept of setting aside dead drilling for specific techniques already in your repertoire being set aside for isolated sparring.

    In the BJJ community exponents such as Andre Galvao swear by consistent dead drilling of technique as a sharpening tool where as others' preference is to live spar. The video addresses some of the perceived flaws of the former approach. I personally think both yeild results but prefer the later. I reckon DeadPool pretty much covered my stance on it.

    I was wondering what others lean towards and what they think of the criticisms of drilling laid out in the video.
     
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Another way to think of this is that as one becomes more knowledgeable and skilled in a subject one has to take greater responsibility for ones own learning. Its part of growing.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Isn't that just too variable to generalise?

    Not only do you have to take into account the assimilation speed of the student, it also depends on the technique in question - some require more nuance to make them work, some benefit more from compliant/dead drilling than others.

    I agree with the basic premise that compliant drilling of techniques you've already mastered might not be the best use of training time (for grappling, anyroads), but I think it's a lot more complex than drill/don't drill.
     
  13. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter


    I think when you are talking about the learning of new material then the question is how is information best assimilated and how is the nuance best assimilated.

    I can actually see a case for both. This is really the topic of contention: If you have a solid understanding of a technique and its components is rigorous repetition through drilling as usefull as isolation sparring and what are the respective benefits and defects.

    Who takes time to regularly drill armbar from guard (for example) every day/week and prefers to just spar the position? What is your reasoning?
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I quite enjoy micro drills which are purely alive training, they have to be incredibly simple, but simplicity is a very very good thing.

    Practice should be about the daily chipping away of inessentials.
     
  15. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter


    Well, yes I agree and that is essentially part of the question ie What decisions do you make regarding the place of high rep drilling in your own advancement of skills and why?
     
  16. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Same here.

    I think if a technique is too complicated to be drilled in this manner then it is too prescriptive and probably not practical.

    I can't think of any effective grappling technique or striking technique that needs more than a brief introductory period before live drilling/isolating.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    This isn't really a criticism of the video, but the video does not address combat principles that are so important to BJJ (and other arts), such as the principle of constant pressure. The principle of constant pressure could just be the way to always have smooth transitions that can't be countered, but it also is how to constantly keep the opponent off-balanced and/or stunned so they are not able to counter when you make transitions.

    You need to work the principles while you drill and actually understand them to use them against a resisting opponent.

    With the alias "knee rider" the principle of constant pressure should be ingrained in you!!!
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    IIRC tenth planet have started doing world wide, standard dead drilling for warm ups now.

    I don't know why, and I can't be bothered to go looking through the smokey interviews to find out...
     
  19. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I have no idea why you think it isn't? Or why that can only be achieved while drilling without resistance. Or for that matter why drilling without resistance is better than a dynamic drill seeing as pressure in terms of both speed and weight requires timing and body sensitivity to actually implement
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Because he didn't talk about combat principles or transitions in the video. He talked about trial and error and that the opponent can react differently.

    Talk about principles would be more like... learn to and understand how to apply constant pressure, then take the technique that the opponent gives you. The transition is fluid and short because you are taking what is given, not forcing technique.


    I didn't say that. I said that the principles need to worked while you drill. In other words, you aren't just working techniques, you are learning the techniques to understand the principles.

    The training partner is ALWAYS resisting, even in your dead drills. The most basic and first form of resisting is to protect themselves from injury. The opponent can also try to counter attack or escape. So you need to better define drilling. Drilling to me is just scripted. It can have resistance. When I drop my knee into their liver, I can get them to drop their hands in response. What is scripted is the sequence and how controlled the technique is, but the training partner will ONLY drop their hands if my controlled knee drop actually hurts them (applying the principle of pressure).
     

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