Practicing with a weapon in order to improve your “barehanded” form

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Greetings!, Aug 23, 2015.

  1. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Greetings again everyone,

    I greatly appreciate the very helpful responses that I have received from many of you to my periodic questions over the last several months since I have begun studying the wonderful martial art of aikido. My instructor has informed us that we are studying the aikdo style of “Nishio”.

    In addition to learning various techniques of aikido throws, we also spend a little bit of class time learning strike techniques, such as, for instance, shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, and “ski” (spelling?). I asked my instructor why we are learning these offensive striking techniques. He then reasonably replied, I am probably greatly paraphrasing, that in order for Nage to be able to complete the throw against Uke’s attack, Uke needs to provide an attack such as one of the striking techniques as listed above. This makes sense.

    The form of my striking techniques, that is, for shomenuchi and yokomenuchi, within the last several months, I believe, has improved.

    However, that being said, I have often times heard in martial arts that a student may sometimes first learn a striking technique with a sword or jo in his hands, before learning a “barehanded” striking technique. Then, from this, the student is able to feel within himself, the flow of the technique with the jo in his hands. Then, the student can put down the weapon and then proceed to deliver the strike (without the weapon in his hands).

    Thus, it has been conveyed to me somewhere along the line that the practicing with a weapon can improve the student’s barehanded delivery of the punch or strike.

    I asked my instructor regarding this. He replied to me, I am probably paraphrasing, that we students will at sometime later on visit the use of the “Jo”. But, firstly, we should practice the striking technique “barehanded”. “Barehanded” is my word for this.

    Therefore, is my instructor possibly, I am sure not intentionally, cutting we students short? That is, should we begin to learn how to nicely strike, as it is my understanding, downward and outward with the jo in our hands, and then we can put down the jo and still have that nice feeling of the same trajectory that we used when we thrusted out the jo, and then apply that same feeling and trajectory with our bare hands in delivering a, for instance, bare handed punch or shomenuchi?

    Please allow me to state that I am certain that my instructor (2nd dan), he being very congenial, approachable and very informative, as well as being able to, literally, move as swift and graceful as a cat, is a proficient aikido instructor. However, I am still questioning the above to myself.

    Thank you very much for any possible responses.

    The best to all,
    Greetings!
     
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    No, he isn't cutting you short. Some styles and instructors start with weapons, but many have the opposite approach and introduce weapons after you get you basic hand techniques down first.

    In my school, we learn hand techniques, then introduce weapons at the intermediate level. Once you have the basics down, then you can concern yourself with using the weapon as an extension of your body. But the idea is to know the basics of using the body first.

    They are different approaches - that is all. I would say if you have trust in your teacher, then trust him. He has years of experience and you are beginning your journey of MA's. If you don't have trust in your teacher, find a different school.

    I see no reason to change schools based on what you are writing though. You are building the foundation for using weapons now, even without one in your hand.
     
  3. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    While they can be used to aid in development of empty hand skills you must recognize that though the mechanics of the weapons may be similar it is not entirely the same.

    Take yokomen-uchi as an example. It is derrived from kesa-giri which cuts down at an angle thropugh the body. The mechanic of yokomen-uchi is very different owing to the fact there are no suitable targets for an empty handed strike where kesa-giri lands.

    Plenty of people train in aikido without using the weapons and develop great empty handed skills. Don't worry about it so much.
     
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    What you say is possible but to me is an over generalization of the skill sets. I would say that instead, you develop timing and distance skill sets training with weapons that will help you in bare handed. In regard to timing and distance, the only difference between a weapon and bare handed is that weapons give longer range and are faster. If you go from weapons to unarmed, the barehanded striking will seem slower and easier to deal with.

    IME, it is more difficult to go from barehanded to weapons because weapons are faster and you have to get used to the speed.

    Again, you need to understand the differences or else there is a risk of over generalization. Weapons work can build strength in forearms and hands that comes in handy with striking. Weapons work also helps to develop hand and eye coordination.

    However, speed is more important than strength with weapons, but for unarmed, speed and strength are about both equally important. This difference can make a big deal. You will learn that cutting motions are very similar between unarmed and armed, but thrusting motions can be completely different between weapon and unarmed.

    An unarmed punch does not equal a thrust with a weapon. Try not to equate them but rather embrace the differences. Don't forget you can punch while you have a weapon in hand too, and then cut them.

    You kind of lost me here. It sounds like your instructor is saying that you should learn how to punch independently of weapons. That makes a lot of sense to me or ask any boxer about this.

    Also, Aikido uses weapons training to help understand principles. These principles are the same for unarmed. So if you stick to principles, you will be better off then trying to figure out how the skill sets overlap.

    You will learn more from hands on with an instructor then from a martial arts forum/online. You can question, but keep an open mind and learn. IMHO.
     
  5. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    As long as the instruction is good, you'll arrive in the same place eventually. Either you'll start with weapons, start with unarmed, or start both simultaneously (assuming a school does both). Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages.

    If you want to really do sword, don't go to a school that only allows people to do weapons after 5 years or something. And vice-versa.

    What you should avoid is an art that merely sticks a weapon in your hand after a certain amount of time unarmed, tells you just to do your unarmed stuff with the weapon, and calls you good to go. It might be useful initially from a pedagogical standpoint to get your feet wet in the weapons pool, but it's ultimately a failed approach if it stays there. There are certain timings that are OK for unarmed that aren't so good with weapons.

    My personal preference is that they are taught together, if only to avoid monotony. I prefer my guys have something like a "big picture" sooner rather than later. But I'm one of the instructors and I can do as I like. Others may disagree.
     
  6. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Are you at the Venice Aikido Club?

    No, with respect to weapon versus barehanded strikes, he is not cutting you short.
     
  7. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Greetings everyone!

    I greatly thank the helpful input from aaradia, SWC Sifu Ben, Rebel Wado, Langenschwert, and Aiki Mac.

    Aiki Mac,

    You had asked if I am at the Venice Aikido Club. The answer is, “No.” I am not. Going to the website for Venice Aikido Club, I see that they also practice Nishio style for Aikido.

    Although I am relatively happy with my current Aikido instructor, it probably doesn’t hurt to periodically check out other Aikido schools in the area from time to time. Perhaps in the very near future, I may decide to check out Venice Aikido Club.

    Perhaps you asked me this because you would maybe like to share something with me regarding this particular Aikido school? Please feel free to send me a private message at any time if you would like.

    Again, thank you very much everyone!

    The best to all,
    Greetings!
     
  8. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Yes, the Venice Aikido Club is an "aiki-bunnie" school.
     

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