Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    I agree. Judo has been proven as a martial art, both in competition and in real situations, but Judoka know that a fight wont begin with both guys pawing at each other's hands, bending over at the waist and looking at the ground, which is common in competition.

    We learned from Rousey's last fight that even an Olympic-level Judoka can still get tagged with an "impractical" high roundhouse.
     
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If theyre looking at the ground their terrible judoka, and lots of fights start with one person bending at the waist and swinging for the fences.

    Judo is definitely good, but obviously its not exactly the same as MMA/ RBSD etc
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Grabbing the wrist or sleeve and executing a lead uppercut to the head is a risky technique, IMHO. There are just too many counters to lead uppercuts to the head. I like your other version with the punch to the body better.

    Don't get me wrong, one of my favorite techniques is a lead uppercut coming from under the arm, but I only use it when the opponent is softened up or stunned by another strike first. Usually by a hook to the ribs, then comes the uppercut.

    What do you think about instead of the grab and uppercut to the head, a grab and strike to the exposed armpit?
     
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I think that's great - we often punch the armpit and immediately grab the pecks or gi to prevent the opponent recovering their position that's been compromised by the strike
    This is an example of when not retracting the hand after a punch is ok

    I like the upwards strike because it's difficult to see coming and if he counters then your arm position can easily transition into a throw

    Be interesting to understand the counters that your referring to - maybe ive missed a trick
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I like the upward strike too, but for a high strike I generally keep my hand in front of me. In other words, my opponent only gets hit if they lean forward into the uppercut. I think this is a stronger position that can go right into the arm lock and it is not as prone to cause me to injure my own shoulder.

    As for counters to the technique, the first is to be aware of the foot position. The sideways opponent takes away their right hand when you are on their left side, but a more squared boxer or karateka is still going to have that right hand available and more options with moving their feet.

    The basic counter I worry about is if the opponent is bigger and stronger and just drops their left elbow in to trap my right uppercutting arm. Then with my arm trapped, they strike with a right palm strike or punch to my face.

    Another counter to be aware of is that an opponent that is quicker can pull off a spinning right back fist as I step in, so I like something faster, like striking to their body before they can spin around.

    Those are the primary counters I'm concerned about but there are always more.
     
  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Thanks - good insights

    Hopefully grabbing the arm, extending it and controlling the balance during the entry nullifies many of these
    But this dynamic is more powerful for the high punch (video 2)
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  7. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    We didn't really learn anything from that fight(unless you just started to watch MMA). That fight showed what every informed person already knew, which is that despite their styles, fighters can get KO'd by each other. Holm shut Ronda down on every single level. She avoided the takedowns using proper technique, avoided the submissions and displayed better stand up skills. Then kicked her in the face when she was already physically and mentally broken. And she did it with a pretty simple kick. Nothing impractical about it. That's one of the most basic and effective kicks you can perform, and it has been tested over and over and over again for decades in different sports. And as a multi time Kickboxing world champion, Holly certainly knows how to throw an effective kick. Oh, and she is obviously not just a striker. She is trained in grappling too: BJJ, Wrestling and Judo. So what we saw was a mixed martial artist getting knocked out by another mixed martial artist.

    You can shut down Judo if you know how to. Regular people don't. Bujinkan people don't. Aikido people don't. You need proper technique in order to avoid a takedown from someone who is really good at it. Maybe with a lot of luck you can knock a Judoka out before they grab you, but that's not what will happen 99% of the time. Unless you're fighting a white belt and also have a hell of a punch.

    Most of the time, an effective style can only be shut down through technical knowledge. If someone without training can avoid your techniques, then you're not training something effective.
     
  8. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    For sure

    It's slightly off topic, but what makes you say that a buj practitioner doesn't have the tools to shut down a judoka?
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't know RoninX. You talk about technical knowledge but without the context of how important experience and principles are. Technical fighters are only going to really excel if they get the experience to back it up. A tested technique is a tool or weapon that can be relied upon, but opportunity when to use or not use the weapon is driven by experience.

    One of my 'uncles' was a Judo guy and he passed along some stories from gang fights they had and other fights. These fights were probably more than seventy years ago. In one account, there was a fight between a Judo champion from Japan and another man from the Philippines. The fight was on the docks in California where they worked. The man used a knife in a strange way that gave the judo champion troubles. Eventually the judo champion broke the opponent's arm and then choked him out. Judo champion said that if the man had attacked with a downward knife strike, he would have ended the fight right away, but the different way of using the knife gave him troubles.

    In the past, a strike could be something that was unexpected in the way it was delivered. As such, it could purposely diverge from commonly used technique. The techniques then become secondary in importance to experience.
     
  10. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Conversely I will smash most guys who've got no technique but go out fighting every week.
     
  11. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Several recent posts moved to the "Is Ninjutsu Really Effective?" thread as the discussion went away from punching
     

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