Is the Takamatsuden one big cult???

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Ah, my dear Mr King...

    Please read carefully. Nobody said there is a negative agenda against Takamatsu sensei. You never quoted anything from the Kuki Zensho so it has nothing to do with the conversation so far. Organisations may have an agenda, yes you shouldn't be surprised. That's not to say that they necessarily do, just that if you are claiming to research something, you should take all sources at more than just face value. Have you read that entire site or just the lineage page? Interesting stance they take on another page.

    Does the dakentaijutsu seem to you to be a mix of karate and jujutsu? If so, where does the karate come from? What karate ryu do you see in the movement and kata or kuden? My personal opinion on the topic is just what I stated above. I don't take anybody's word at face value, everything must be examined for logic, including outside sources.

    Don't tease us, if you have something to get off your chest then feel free. It gets better, what you have a vintage bottle of wine?



     
  2. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    Great condescending conversation.
    Getting no where.

    I still think PR is Don Roley. :)
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Missed this one.

    :banana: Ohh, you have goodies you earned? How are articles in publications or books you can buy(if you can buy and afford them) earned? Sound like Trump on sacrifice now. I was asking if you had read the entire site? It's worth wasn't in question. If the answer was yes, you might see my point. So you want me to post things I've earned and bought :rolleyes: after just stating that you were unwilling to do so? So much for show and tell.

    Anyway, believe whatever you like. So far you've talked a good game, but you have not been able to show that the arts in question were created by Takamatsu sensei or if they were, what they were supposedly concocted from. Teasing us with proof and verification while posting nothing but hot air. Yet you claim not to have an agenda. If you were interested in reasoned debate, you wouldn't be making such off base assumptions and dealing with evidence in such a sparing way. If you have the goods show them, otherwise quit the word tease.

    Okay, I'll meet you at Ishitani sensei's grave on his meinichi and we can compare notes then. Deal?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  4. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    No, I said I am willing to do so...I am not hiding my name. Everyone here can see who I am and what I claim and I am offering for anyone to meet and I can show what I have found in my research.

    You didn't answer if you have been to Kansai to research Takamatsu's connection there....his old stomping grounds. Surely you have based upon the way you post....

    Which Ishiya (Ishitani) are you referring to? Be glad to meet up with you as I was the one offering. Bring any single piece of evidence regarding the other ryu in the xkan as I am anxious to see it. After I win the show and tell (as any original document beats 15th dan, maybe even just one of Ito Gingetsu's books) we can Indian leg wrestle and loser buys all sake/beer for the remainder of the day. You in?

    Regards,
    Joe King

     
  5. gregtcatca

    gregtcatca New Member

    Who you leave the forum for alwhile , and all hell breaks out , lol.

    Interesting thoughts and ideas from both sides, here's another :
    Www.jujitsumelbourne.com.au/ kukishinden-ryu.html

    And I beleave there's still an eBay copy of the Kiki book for $ 499.99 us , but isn't this book just about the family linage etc , very little technique ? , sorry I'm not rich enough to buy it or read japanese,
     
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Welcome to MAP.

    Is this a link back to your own site, because if so it should be removed, with your thoughts posted directly to MAP.
     
  7. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Here's a link to a 1963 interview with Hatsumi.
    http://blogs.masoyama.net/?eid=451
    In it he says

    "
    私は、免許を受けたのですが、いまでも毎週土曜夜行で行って、日曜練習して、また夜行で帰るという修行をつづけています。"

    I've received Menkyo but even now travel to Nara every Saturday night, train Sunday and come back in the evening."

    I don't think this is the one Todd is referring to. I found this searching google for 5 seconds.

    I also have a copy of the kukishinden Zensho and could dig it out to scan certain parts. I believe the part about Takamatsu's letters to the Kuki family was discussed on e-Budo sometime back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
  8. gregtcatca

    gregtcatca New Member

    Thkyou Simon, no just a quick google on a Saturday Argo
     
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Kind of interesting that something that contradicted and superseded the "translation" of the article he posted could be :google: so easily...


    No point scanning the Zensho until we are kindly informed what he is talking about. Just naming that xyz is in a book doesn't really do much. We don't know what section, a page number or anything. Maybe we have to earn that information?
     
  10. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    It's page 311.
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Funny that it was that easy, yet he was dangling it out there like some secret proof about Takamatsu sensei. Like I said, sounds suspiciously like how Cummins operates.
     
  12. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Thanks Benkyoka...I have no idea as it has been some time since I have seen it. I am starting to think many hasn't seen some of these references either because they don't have access to them or they didn't know about them.

    However, there were a few items of interest in the couple of books published regarding Takamatsu sensei and his letters as well as some of the content of the school and its makimono etc. Maybe also of interest would be the list of students that received Menkyo kaiden from the Tenshin Hyoho line.

    Anyone else in this forum have any items relating to the schools outside of TYR and KSR? I have had several people contact me directly and one claims to have some items relating to a line of one of the schools. Looking forward to learning more about it. So maybe this thread wasn't such a waste of time anyway.

    I still can't upload files to here but will post this image on the same Yoshin Dojo at FB. Did you guys know that back in 60's postage from Chiba to southern Japan was so cheap?

    Regards,
    Joe King

     
  13. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    If you read the lineage chart in your genbukan ninpo fundamentals, you'll see that he is listed for a number of ryuha. But under his original name. The ryuha for which he isn't listed are the ones he got through other students of Takamatsu. For tracing certification lineage, that is not invalid.

    He also speaks about him in terms of 'my former teacher' in a couple of places in the book. Or in some of his books in any case.

    Do I think that is entirely appropriate? No. But then again I don't think any one of us is placed to judge on the matter. what happened was between a couple of people who are the only ones who really know what happened, and only a couple of them are still alive. And looking back through the lineage, I doubt that the x kan controverse is even close to being as vague as what came before.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  14. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    Fascinating that supposedly so many people have original documents from Takamatsu or from the ryuha lineage. They must have had quite a printing setup in that day to have so much authentic documentation be available to such a wide variety of people :) It is of course a well known fact that those menkyo holders are famed for handing out scrolls, letters, artefacts and miscellaneous authentic items like candy.

    No doubt the ninjutsu community will finally be able to come to a consensus and put all this controversy behind them. Well done that man!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  15. Meitetsu

    Meitetsu Valued Member

    Just out of curiosity is the Kuki Zensho worth reading? It's 25~45K so if it is a bunch of lineage charts it is liable to become a doorstop.
     
  16. jameswhelan

    jameswhelan Valued Member

    Many xkan people misunderstand what this book is - that it's "the bible of Kukishin ryu" or something. Martial arts are only a small part of it.

    The majority of the content is Koshi-Koden Fortean Shintoism. The author was a well known crank - like a Graham Hancock figure.

    The parts that are about martial arts documents are very light on analysis because the author knew nothing about martial arts.
     
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Got it in front of me now

    There is some interesting information regarding Tenmon Chimon. Theres some talk of the big dipper and some other writings to do with strategy. Theres some poetry with some apparently going back to 641AD and some quotes for example from Fujiwara No Takazane from 1333.

    There are whole lists of techniques, some familiar some not.Theres lists of Atemi, swimming methods, healing methods, resuscitation, some stuff on Amatsu Tatara, some histories, and a letter by Hatsumi Sensei and some more.

    Its an interesting read, but most of it just leaves you more perplexed than when you began.

    Certainly wouldn't spend a whole bunch of money on it, but then depends on how much of a Ninpo geek you are.
     
  18. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    It's funny how much effort people put into debating the authenticity of Hatsumi's background and what he teaches.

    How much did he actually train with Takamatsu? Nobody knows. But i've read in several articles that after a couple of years of training he was a Menkyo Kaiden. Double standards are a wonderful thing, because if nowadays someone told you that they reached the highest ranking in a certain style in 2 years, you would certainly look at him, his style and his teacher as bad jokes.

    Is Togakure/Gyokko/Koto, etc real old martial schools? Nobody knows, as far as i know. Nobody has ever presented any sort of credible evidence.

    What's the first record of Togakure Ryu? I don't think i have ever read anything about the school prior to the late 50's or early 60's. If i'm wrong, correct me. But if i'm right, one gotta wonder why the hell would someone keep silence about this for 50 years, and then, all of the sudden, students, menkyo kaidens issued, interviews, books, etc.

    I find the whole Ryu-Ha system very confusing. Even the two Ryu-ha that are supposedly verifiable. How much do we actually know about Takamatsu's training in Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu? Was Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu ever a real school prior to Takamatsu? What about Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu? Is there any evidence that Takamatsu was ever given a real Sokeship in anything?

    Again, double standards. If someone who had a few years of Karate and Judo under his belt went on to create his new style and to claim sokeship on another weird ancient, with no strong evidence of anything, nobody would take him seriously.

    But i get it. Anything that comes from Japan and is a few decades old has automatically more credibility.

    At the end of the day, is Takamatsu really that much different from a Greg Park, a Frank Dux or a Christa Jacobson? At the end of the day, it's all very similar.

    Some of these frauds(not all) actually had legit martial arts training and received legit rankings under legit instructors. The only problem is that all the other rankings they claim on different martial arts are unverifiable.

    I know it's not the exact same things and there are a few things that make Takamatsu a little more credible, but at the end of the day, it's very similar. Takamatsu too had some legit martial arts training under legit instructors. But then we have all his other claims that absolutely no one can verify. It's a very similar pattern to many known frauds. They train something, then their ego drives them to make crazy claims so they can feel more special. Being a black belt isn't good enoug. Let's claim sokeship on something. Maybe being a Menkyo Kaiden in a few styles wasn't enough for Takamatsu. He had to be the Soke of something. Some people just need to be royalty. 1 style, 2 styles aren't enough. They need to be Grand Masters of 8, 9, 10, 15 styles.

    Who the hell is actually proficient in so many styles? No offense to Hatsumi, but one day i was watching the tape of an old Taikai in the 90's(don't remember which) and the man was truly having trouble doing what he wanted to do with a certain weapon. It was more than obvious that he wasn't that good at it. And yet, he is the Soke, a title he supposedly received after a couple of years of training. So i think the whole thing should be taken with a grain of salt.

    What's really really funny is that the ONLY man who should give answers is Hatsumi, and he really doesn't give a damn about it. His students do their best to defend him and defend what he teaches, and he doesn't say a word about this whole controversy. Not in public.

    Now, as far as the Takamatsuden being a big cult...well, a lot of people in the X-Kans display some sort of cult mentality. They don't question anything. They follow their leader in all steps despite the surprising lack of evidence regarding any sort of authenticity.

    Now, i've trained the Takamatsu-den arts for many years and i displayed that same mentality at some point, but no longer. I find real value in some of the teachings, but i refuse to believe everything they tell me and i have no problem speaking against the "system".

    I think the Bujinkan is, overall, a poor organisation with poor instructors for the most part. I was also never completely sold on Hatsumi. Nobody in the org really says this, but i never found his movement to be that good. I think Tanemura is much, much more impressive. And i think a lot of the Shihan in the Bujinkan are also much better than Hatsumi ever was, even in his prime. Yeah, i know, i know, Hatsumi touches people and they go "flying" and act like the man has some sort of great power and can easily control anyone with a couple of fingers. The uke do that because they wanna do it. It's as simple as that. I'm a very difficult uke to work with because i'm not gonna fall unless you actually make me fall. Having trained with many Shihan, i can honestly tell myself and others that most of it doesn't work and you can easily resist it with pure strenght. Maybe if it was trained in a different way it could work, but the training methods in the Bujinkan are atrocious.

    That being said, this whole subject is fascinating. Takamatsuden is a big mystery that's fun to talk and speculate about. I'm glad there is so much information nowadays on the topic. It has probably helped a few people to save their money.
     
  19. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    Cool story
     
  20. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I do appreciate the thought and intelligence put into that.
    I agree with quite a bit of it. Most of it really.

    Well said
     

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