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  #16  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan93 View Post
Do you expect me to read that wall of waffle?
I had to look up "waffle" because it doesn't make sense to my American ears. God bless MAP, for I learn something new every week here.

American waffle = to speak or write equivocally; fail to make up one's mind

British waffle = speak or write, especially at great length, without saying anything important or useful

But anyway, this line in the above waffle is almost sig worthy: "I am strong and the future awaits my memoirs."
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  #17  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
I ask, "Why did you stay with him?"
and, "Why the break and accusations now?"
As best as I can decipher, he stayed for the purpose of documenting Chinil's evilness. Now he finally has enough records that he can share it with the world.
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  #18  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aikiMac View Post
I had to look up "waffle" because it doesn't make sense to my American ears. God bless MAP, for I learn something new every week here.

American waffle = to speak or write equivocally; fail to make up one's mind

British waffle = speak or write, especially at great length, without saying anything important or useful

But anyway, this line in the above waffle is almost sig worthy: "I am strong and the future awaits my memoirs."
Ha! Didn't know the American definition. Guess I learned something as well.
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  #19  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 06:56 PM
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i have to say, the op is pure gold, if for nothing than nuggets like that...

Quote:
There Chinil Chang would fail as a master teacher because of his devil like attitude from the excessive freedom in America which instilled an arrogant behavior and decline inself discipline.
but another interesting thing....

when i check the hapkido wikipedia page, i've noticed some interesting changes. so the last time i looked on the page, it was because of discussions with our very own iron_ox (i think former member at this point). and the reason was to see what was written about lim hyun soo, the dude that supposedly is teaching "real" hapkido--jungki kwan.

it seems now that this chinil chang character has been written in as the "chosen successor" and lim is nowhere to be found. i'll have to go through the edit history at some point. but i'll be curious to see how this history took place. i know kevin was quite involved in editing the hapkido page and i wonder what he thinks of these changes.
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  #20  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 07:02 PM
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here's a link to mentions of "chinil" on the page and edits. will go through some more but it would be nice for some others to chime in also.

http://wikipedia.ramselehof.de/wikib...der=desc&user=
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  #21  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giovanni View Post

when i check the hapkido wikipedia page, i've noticed some interesting changes. so the last time i looked on the page, it was because of discussions with our very own iron_ox (i think former member at this point). and the reason was to see what was written about lim hyun soo, the dude that supposedly is teaching "real" hapkido--jungki kwan.

it seems now that this chinil chang character has been written in as the "chosen successor" and lim is nowhere to be found. i'll have to go through the edit history at some point. but i'll be curious to see how this history took place. i know kevin was quite involved in editing the hapkido page and i wonder what he thinks of these changes.
If I recall, GM Lim Hyun-soo has never been presented as the next 'Doju-nim' which is a very specific title for founder (or successor) of the art.

If I recall, there were several people who supposedly were offered and/or given the title the 'Dojunim', including GM Chang Chin-il and Choi Dojunnim's son (and seems like maybe two others). The problem is that Hapkido has been pretty splintered off in a whole bunch of different groups that no one is really seen as the 'formal inheritor' of Choi Yong-sool Dojunim's system. Many people look to GM Ji Han-jae as the person who has really spread the art and stands among the very few who could be looked at the 'head of Hapkido'. (Please note I am generalizing and not trying to stir up a wave of controversy). A mere scratching of the Hapkido forest will show quite a few people of various lineages who have carved off their own group and become 10th dans (generally without the title of Doju)

GM Lim Hyun-soo is recognized as one of the very few people to have trained directly under Choi Yong-sool Dojunim and been awarded a 9th dan from him, making him pretty much the man with the highest rank from (and most training under) Choi Yong-sool Dojunim. I don't think GM Lim has ever claimed to be 'Doju(nim)' nor represented himself as anything beyond a 9th dan holder under Choi Yong-sool.

That he is a 9th dan under Choi Yong-sool Dojunim holds a lot of weight compared to the others who were offered the title of Dojunim, since they didn't have the rest of the corresponding rank directly from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim and the time in training under the founder. They were offered the title and theoretically a 10th dan without necessarily having the rest of the ranks directly from the founder.If anything, then GM Lim Hyun-soo would stand to make the best case for teaching 'Hapkido' the closest to what/how Choi Dojunim taught.

My apologies for any errors... I am 'shooting from the hip' and would need to take a look at some historical sources for more specific details.
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  #22  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 07:13 PM
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right, sorry i didn't mean to imply that lim was the chosen successor. but lim has been pretty much written out of the wiki page and this chinil character written in.
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  #23  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 07:14 PM
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From a review I wrote of Dr. Kimm's History of Hapkido, here is a list of people offered the position of 'Doju'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas
Kim Yung-sang and Lee Yong-soo trained with Choi Dojunim from about 1973-1985 by visiting for various periods of time. In 1981 they were both offered the title of "Doju". They refused. In 1983 they were offered 9th dans and refused. In 1984 they were promoted to 9th dan. In 1985, they were offered 10th dan - they refused. (pp.394-397)

Choi Yong-sool Dojunim passed away in 1986. Before he died, he passed the Doju-ship to his son Choi Bong-yool (who died a year after his father). (p. 391) Choi Bong-yul held a 7th dan, and Choi Yong-sool Dojunim asked Kim Yun Sang and Lee Yong-soo to assist Choi Bong-sool as Doju. Choi Bong-sool died in 1987. In order to be able to continue to promote students, Kim Yun-sang and Lee Yong-soo formed the Dae Han Hapki Yu Sul Hyub Hoe to issue rank. (p.399)

Before he died, Choi Yong-sool Dojunim passed the second Doju-ship to Chang Chin-il in 1985. (p.391) Chang Chin-il holds a 9th dan in Taekwondo and had done private Hapkido lessons with Choi Dojunim.*(p.391) Choi Dojunim offered the title of "Doju" to Kim Jung Soo, Kim Jong Yoon, Yu Byung Don, and Hong Seung Gil, each of whom refused. (p.391)
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  #24  
Old 17-Mar-2017, 08:07 PM
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First thank you Simon. for rest yes to all and for the last, Chinil Chang knew that I was writing my memoirs to set the record straight for all to know. As i told him i would therefore I remain with Chinil Chang and washed all of you grow to get to where you are today in hapkido. think of where were in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and so forth. what I wrote is simple facts that can be cross examine in the search sections of the internet WWW. I not accusing Chinil Chang of anything that isn't true as he is well aware of what I wrote. As for why the break away! thats simple I am retired and never intended to become part of the defragmented hapkido word with no unity. which is why I fragment Chinil Chang's hapkido history. so all of you can become greater then you already are as teachers and students alike. So for all who seek to join a martial art system to make the right choice and for all teacher to be the best there student could have. I apologize if any one was offended as this was not my intention. peace, love and god bless. fraternally your Xman; Xavier
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  #25  
Old 19-Mar-2017, 02:56 PM
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from 1970 on through 1985 Chinil Chang didn't go for any further training with Choi Yong Sool in Korea. Currently Chinil Chang is teaching at a park one day a week 8m to 10m at other times from 9m to 11m.
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  #26  
Old 19-Mar-2017, 03:47 PM
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Why do you even care though? It's really not important.
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  #27  
Old 19-Mar-2017, 07:21 PM
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Ok very good carry on
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  #28  
Old 20-Mar-2017, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMAM View Post
from 1970 on through 1985 Chinil Chang didn't go for any further training with Choi Yong Sool in Korea.
6th Dan is master. Promotions to 7th, 8th, and 9th aren't about training.

According to your story, you were first demoted from 3rd degree black belt when you were 10 or 11 years old? (Demoted in 1981, 46 y/o now.)

Also, when and how did you come to the determination that you are a martial arts master? You start off claiming to be an uncertified master and then further down in the story, stated you were leading classes as a "hidden master."
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  #29  
Old 20-Mar-2017, 06:09 PM
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6th Dan is master. Promotions to 7th, 8th, and 9th aren't about training.
To be fair, it does depend on the organization. Some will use the title "master" as early as 4th dan and some later.

If I recall correctly, in the early days of "Hapkido", 7th dan was the highest grade, which later was pushed to 9th dan (and for some today 10th dan).

So, if GM Chang Chin-il had a '7th dan' from Choi Dojunim before he came to the US, then it is likely he held the highest possible rank at the time. Eventually as other organizations added ranks and as the system grew, it would make sense for Choi Dojunim to award his senior students with 8th and 9th dan rank (and receive pay for it).

I think the OP gets into this... something which is pretty typical for a Korean system... I am not sure what the OP's complaint is.

It is not unheard of for Hapkido instructors in the early days to gain rank quickly, especially if they are helping spread the art. It also would have made sense to provide a way for them to keep on earning rank even if they are no longer training full time under Choi Dojunim.
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Last edited by Thomas; 20-Mar-2017 at 06:18 PM.
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  #30  
Old 20-Mar-2017, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SCA View Post
6th Dan is master. Promotions to 7th, 8th, and 9th aren't about training.

According to your story, you were first demoted from 3rd degree black belt when you were 10 or 11 years old? (Demoted in 1981, 46 y/o now.)

Also, when and how did you come to the determination that you are a martial arts master? You start off claiming to be an uncertified master and then further down in the story, stated you were leading classes as a "hidden master."
Well my history reads that my son was 7 years old. At the time in 1982 when Chinil Ching still angry at his failure to fame and fortune. kicked the little boy that was 7 years old. its that a master to hurt a child.


To present day Chinil Chang continues remind me how well I was trained by him. We as student knew all the incidents that had occurred with Chinil Chang and all knew that the chronicle would be written including Chinil Chang and we all would agree that he would still teach as. very well therefore striping the needs for certifications and belts. Of which required 40 years of hapkido advance training no belt, certificates or names required. What mattered is that Chinil Chang is my master and only he knows the answer to your question about how Xman would be master. Peace, love and god bless.

Last edited by XMAM; 20-Mar-2017 at 10:44 PM.
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