How do you personally define if a MA is good or not?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Vinny Lugo, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    How do you define whether a martial is good or not? It seems that the prevailing attitude is if a martial art can't defeat other styles in the octagon then it's worthless. If it can then its good. Am I wrong?
     
  2. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Where is that the prevailing attitude?
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Have to say it's not an attitude I've come across that often.

    The octagon or MMA fighters have made a lot of hobbyist martial artists realise they perhaps condition themselves a little better, make a little more contact in sparring and pressure test, but among those I mix and converse with I can't say it's ever mentioned.

    Why do you train is the first question.

    If you are doing it for more social reasons or for a little exercise then the cage or it's fighters is of no interest to you.

    If your chosen art has point fighting competitors then the conditioning I mentioned is important, but the level of contact, small gloves, elbow and knee strikes isn't.

    If self defence is top of your list then again I'd argue the MMA scene is no more than a showboat for the level of contact you may face in training.

    Remember though that good SD classes use protective equipment for a reason.

    I occasionally use a crash helmet and even then your head rattles from a good shot.

    The style v style argument doesn't wash, as it's how you train it that's important.

    I'm not a lover of kata, but have witnessed members of MAP defending themselves during SD simulation scenarios with moves directly from kata.

    They've trained it under pressure and it's there when they want it.

    Your chosen art is important to you and that's all that matters.

    I'm not a Karate fan, but I'm smart enough not to dismiss it because I've been on the receiving end of it.

    All this will become clear once you pick something and put some time into it.
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Does it deliver what it says it does?

    That is my only metric
     
  5. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Indeed, looking at this here forum I count, what, sub-forums for 21 martial arts plus "mma" and "weapons" and "western" and "other." Of the 21 particular sub-forums, I count only 5 or 6 martial arts that are commonly in the Octagon.

    If that math means anything, it means that the Octagon is not the exclusive measuring rod. :dunno: :rolleyes:

    QFT.
     
  6. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I judge it on the practitioners. Are they honest and realistic about its strengths and weaknesses?
     
  7. Anwolf

    Anwolf Valued Member

    Is it an effective way of fighting. There might be other secondary factors but ultimately that is what it comes down to.
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I'm looking for the following:

    - power generation,
    - speed generation,
    - defense and counter,
    - combo that use A to set up B,
    - ...

    If there are MA style A and B,

    - style A instructor said, "if you stay in this style long enough, you will understand power generation."
    - style B instructor said, "If you train drills 1, 2, ..., you will understand power generation within 6 months."

    I'll go for style B and not for style A.

    If

    - style A teach technique X, and counter Y for X,
    - style B teach technique X, counter Y for X, and counter Z for counter Y,

    I'll also go for style B and not for style A.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  9. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    Good for what?
     
  10. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    The uniform.
     
  11. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    If I hear a bs story about how one of them killed 20 of the enemy with a spork, i tend to question the art. I also quesstion the school the has fielded 20 pro fighters from their garage. I trust the school that claims to be o.k and just wants me to try them.out.
     
  12. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    Everywhere. I can't tell you how many articles I have seen that talk about how traditional MA are dying because of mma
     
  13. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    There was just a thread on how bjj fighters gloat about how they are the best around. That was made two months ago
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Actually they don't....Low level ones and fanboys tend to, but the ones that are any good are very open people
     
  15. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Frankly if a martial art (or more realistically the community of practitioners) doesn't at least prepare you to competently fight one unarmed dude in a fight you know is coming, it is pretty well worthless.

    None of the character building, self defense or cultural study actually has any depth if the student doesnt even begin to understand what he's practicing. You can't understand fighting techniques to any real depth without experiencing them (many mnany times) in live, unscripted movement.

    If someone wants to practice Kyudo, and treat their training as moving meditation completely removed from combat and the techniques associated with it, that's fine. Totally respectable. But two points- One is that they are honest about it. You won't find a genuine Kyudoka telling people he's learning to shoot like the samurai did, or that he's learning to fight with a bow. He isn't.
    The other is that he's focusing a microscope on a very tiny element of a craft, and that craft did not develop in isolation. Without experiencing the environment they developed in and the forces that shaped them, even the best Kyudoka can't have a thorough understanding of even the techniques and rituals he does practice.


    In short, if the members of a community in a martial art don't actually fight (and often), they'll understand neither fighting nor the non-combat aspects of the art(since they are borne of and steeped in the crucible of actual oppositional combat). MMA just happens to be the most high-profile example of that.
     
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    My measuring stick is how good I am at beating people with a stick :D (I've just started kali again)

    I would say really though, I want to be able to fight better than anyone in an unarmed situation.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I agree with this.

    I have a pretty clear idea of what I want from a martial arts school, and as an instructor, a pretty good idea of what we offer. I also have a good idea what other schools in the area offer and what they claim. For the most part, they tend to be pretty clear and honest. There are some schools that I would not train at long term because I disagree with their philosophy, but it doesn't stop me from attending (or inviting them to) seminars where we all can share ideas. I also have no qualms recommending certain students to other schools that may fit better than ours does.
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    if the art calls itself "martial", then i expect that it teaches people how to actually fight.

    if not, then is it fun.

    just my opinion on the matter.
     
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Regarding the use of Kyudo as an example,that's like saying a competition archer from England needs to understand medieval archery as applied to combat,or needs to know how to hunt. A thorough understanding of technique simply =mechanics= ability to hit the target. Irrelevant whether target is a butt or a sentry.

    Western fencers don't fight like people actually did.So even tho' they're involved in a competitive sport they'll never really understand where their stuff came from unless they use it with its original methods (and weaponry) on the battlefield.(Or pubs and back alleys.:)) But does it matter? Why?

    As for the meaning of Kyudo rituals anyone under the tutelage of a legit teacher would learn these.

    Well, that's why some things are called "art".Or "Do". Like Iaidos,most of which aren't combat oriented-in spite of using sharp swords.

    Or Kyudo!

    And that's why I don't refer to any system which isn't designed as a "do" but as a fighting system as an "art".
     
  20. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I don't know that it does matter, so long you know what you are driving towards and honestly steer in that direction. That isn't terribly common in my experience. The problem comes when people claim to teach for "the streets" or claim to impart some real understanding of a warrior tradition.

    It'd be like miming the movements of a lion and then acting like you understand what it feels like for an animal to hunt and take down a gazelle, or worse, that you are any good at it. It's two totally different worlds. That's the level of ignorance it takes for someone to not understand why MMA (or more precisely the training methods associated with it) holds the position it does among people serious about understanding and navigating violence.

    Obviously competing in MMA isn't the only path to competence but if your training is drastically different, you probably have a problem. Hell, even training to gunfight has the same basic elements. If you're not training with full resistance against committed, competent opponents with some regularity, you're sure as hell not going to learn to fight against them. Flat range target shooting is fine, and absolutely respectable, but it's a fraction of the whole. And you can't really understand one piece if you don't even grasp where and how it fits with the others.

    Olympic TKD and other point-sparring heavy styles are an example. Without the pressures of dangerous hand strikes, takedowns or effective power generation, it's mutated into something totally detached from actual oppositional combat. That's okay, if a student knows and wants that end product. But by itself it provides only a shallow, myopic, distorted understanding of the whole and more often than not, the students convince themselves it IS the whole. This is something we've seen in discussions here hundreds of times from countless TMA'ists.
     

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