How much force / resistance?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Theidiot, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    Let's say you're teaching a technique to a beginner. That beginner is not only less experienced than you, she is also a petite woman and you are a big ugly man.

    Let's say the technique involves breaking out of an aggressive restraints, arm locking the attacker and throwing them to the ground.

    There is a balance to be struck. On one hand, you want to teach that without correct technique, it will not work against a stronger opponent. On the other hand, you're ware that it's quite demoralising when attempt after attempt just results in your mock attacker just standing there, unaffected, calmly explaining and trying to show the technique again.

    What's people's views on this? Do you resist at all costs until they do the technique right, or do you theatrically hurl yourself at the floor and let on that it was them that did it, or somewhere in between?
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I will never "fight" or "fully resist" until they are ready, but equally I will never go down or let go without some level of compulsion....their feelings are irrelevant to me, only the quality of their reps and training matters
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Good question.

    Does a technique work - yes.

    Does a technique work - no.

    Seems like a strange thing to say, but there are two schools of thought.

    If a choke is on it should be to the point there isn't an escape, but as we all know there is a counter for every counter.

    I tell my students that you can't wrestle your way out of a hold and you will need to deliver a softener first. Something that gives you an addition inch or two of space, or a thumb in the eye for example that releases the other person's grip.

    I like the technique / release done properly, but if the student is so much smaller and weaker that it's impossible then I'd say you have to yield a bit so they can actually do the technique and show them a way to deliver a softener.
     
  4. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I think you should get them to rep the technique a few times with corrections and verbal feedback. Then start drilling with very gentle resistance up till they start consistently failing.

    If the student can't complete a single rep without success then the technique is too hard and might need to be broken into smaller steps.
     
  5. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Graduated resistance , with feed back , I'm probably the biggest and ugliest bloke at my Aikido club , if I were to grab one of the ladies there full on it would be totally pointless to both of us , so , I tend to start with a fairly gentle grab giving feedback as to what's going right or wrong for them and gradually ramp up the grip as their technique improves.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    To make something to work you will need "technique" and "ability". The "technique" can be absolute, but the "ability" is always relative.
     
  7. Theidiot

    Theidiot New Member

    We always have to fake it to some extent anyway, because the technique relies on a distraction. If you know what's coming it's quite easy to resist. So to some extent we kind of let it happen. But having let them take it to the pinch point, I prefer to see sufficient fluidity to make it work at least a bit.

    I should clarify I'm not the instructor. Just a fellow student in a club where we all help each other. I like people to have confidence, but not misplaced confidence. Also the techniques at lower grades are actually not very reliable in themselves, but they teach core principles used in more realistic techniques later. That's why I try to strike a balance between bigging the person up, while ensuring they're learning principles and not just replicating an approximation for something.
     
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Make sure you are stressing the stuff that prevents the big ugly male getting hold of the beginner :)

    Mitch
     
  9. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Do they ever engage in fully resistant, unscripted training (like sparring or wrestling) with someone reasonably close to their size? Do they ever genuinely attempt to defeat one another?
    If so, it's kind of a moot point. Their confidence will come along with competence. (as it should- if it doesn't, it's just self deception)
    If not, it's also a moot point. Might as well cooperate and have fun. Just be honest about what is happening.
     
  10. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    When I train with other beginners (I still can't call myself more than an advanced beginner) or children I personally do it like this: When the person is there for the first couple of times, I pay attention that the core of the technique is correct and that they move properly; even if the lock doesn't work 100% at the moment I go to the ground (or whatever, depending on the technique).
    Nobody can have everything right, right from the beginning.

    I do tell them however that the lock wasn't completely there, that the movement has lacked this or that and that this is something we will have to work on, but that it comes with the time.

    When the core of the technique isn't correct or an important movement is wrong - I keep staying, look at them and wait a moment; not to be mean, but to see if they get an idea what's wrong.
    In case they don't I explain what was wrong, in case they keep trying (without brute force) I let them try a moment and wait if they notice what's wrong.

    With children it's nearly the same: When I teach them their techniques and they are supposed, for example, to throw me with an O-Soto-Gari but won't break my posture I keep staying as well.
    As soon as the big eyes come I do tell them right away however: "You're not breaking my posture" or "You're leg is too far away" or whatever.
    Once they do it, I fall down, even though I wouldn't have to due to the difference in weight - I can't expect a 6-year-old to throw me properly; if I don't want to be pushed over, he won't manage.

    If a grown-up forgets to break posture I keep staying and if he doesn't do it properly and I can manage to keep staying anyway (the same as above applies to grown-ups :eek: I'm 165cm and 65kg; if a newbie of 185cm and 95kg wants to throw me without breaking posture, chances are he can do it) I keep staying, if he throws anyway because he's so much bigger and stronger I tell them to try that with XY and explain that it worked in that moment, due to weight/ height differences but that there was no technique behind it.
    In case they don't believe me (hasn't happened so far; most people coming to us were friendly and all so far; probably like nearly everywhere) I would call XY over and tell them what's the problem.
    I did that already, just so the newbies would feel what I was talking about, when they're especially big.


    But maybe I should mention, that I would get a scolding of my teachers, if I wouldn't do that.
    Given we are at a point with our own training, that we know ourselves when, for example, a lock wouldn't be working, we are supposed to keep standing; I actually got rebuked -in a nice way - for being too friendly with the other in the beginning, so I don't do that anymore.
    That learning process made me, according to my teachers, a good partner, because I learned to recognize when to give (more) resistance and when not to.

    I do admit though: As soon as I don't like the person, if the person starts whining or using brute force (after I mentioned it), I just go down and don't care for the learning process of the other.
    I cherish my health more and if I don't like the other at all I just don't care.
     
  11. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    The student should first be learning how to apply the technique with correct timing, coordination, posture/stance, etc. Resisting before the student has the fundamentals down is counterproductive. They need to practice with repetition to really get it correctly before speeding things up. This also helps the student to memorize what they are learning in the first place through practicing the technique.

    Knee rider brought up a good point about learning the different moves before doing them all together like that, as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016

Share This Page