Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well I should correct myself, there is push and pull, but what I meant it isn't the main emphasis for the footwork.

    For normal walking, mostly it is gravity aided motion. But I think we really want to be talking about "martial stepping".

    Here is an exercise to demonstrate moving at the hips and stepping with the left foot:

    1) Start with feet shoulder width apart and parallel to each other. On front of you about 4-5 feet away is a target (e.g. a heavy bag). Your feet should be equal distant from the target for purposes of this exercise. Feet should be pointing forward.

    2) Bring hips back slightly as if in semi-crouch (like a quarter sprawl). Stay relaxed.

    3) Bring the hips forward and as you do this allow your left foot to step. Depending on your hips, your left foot should move forward and out at about 45 degrees. Allow it to land flat. The step should be fairly small, if it is a larger step, you should feel that you spring up and both feet move together.

    4) Since the power line for the right punch is where the right foot is pointing, go ahead and throw the right cross and allow the right foot to drag a bit so that with a slight pivot it ends up pointing along the line you strike.

    5) Since the power line for the left punch is along the line the left foot is pointing, so a head an rotate the left foot in a bit and throw the left hook.

    You should not have felt much pushing or pulling from the legs because you are moving at the hips.

    In reality it is moving at the waist, but the hips movement is easier to see. Also, none of this is using the falling step power mechanics where you hit when the foot lands. I don't want to get into how add that in here to keep things simple, but I do add it into the cross by timing the end of the drag/pivot with the punch hitting. This is a different subject though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Different context. His foot work is for power, his punching technique (upper body) is for points, not knockout. Look at his punches, they are going across his body. If he really punched like that with power, his front knee would get messed up (just look how the left knee twists with just light power on his right cross). He isn't using the right power lines for the footwork.


    Also different context. I was talking about pushing and pulling with the feet, not upper body. If you step in with right foot, you can pull your right knee forward and/or you can push off the left foot.

    To me these movements give power but are very hard on the body (such as ruptured achilles tendon). I don't like them, but I think young and strong can start with them, but they should only do them when properly warmed up and slowly. When moving full speed, both feet should move together, not one pushing and one pulling, IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I wanted to address the 3 punches in 1 second. First if your feet aren't moving, then you are not using stepping power as the primarily method for power generation. If I needed maximum power and rapid striking combined, I would use rising power from legs and hips combined with limited torso twisting. For example, alternating shovel hooks to the body.

    Ultimately though, I think compound attacking would be better. That would be multiple strikes with the same limb. So three strikes right (punch, elbow, backfist), three strikes left (punch, elbow, shoulder strike/headbutt). Maybe all six strikes in less than 2 seconds with two steps (steps coming with/after the elbows).
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You are taking into account the obstruction/destruction of their stance when you land the rear foot and punch right? If you are only thinking about the rear punch, and forgetting that you are simultaneously attacking above and below then you will be discussing something else by matter of course.

    Another aspect of our ryu is the use of sinking power predominantly over rising power. You can see this again and again. Also, all movements of the upper body come with footwork, even if it is the slightest shift of the knees and not a step(but we usually step).
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  5. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The famous image of Ishizuka-Sensei is taken from this - where he teaches the basic tsuki (although the landing heel first version)

    https://youtu.be/kshWaBLtPhQ?t=16m44s

    Immediately after teaching punching the basic kicking method is shown by Ishizuka-sensei and Nagato-Sensei. You can observe a few differences

    There's some further examples of punching shown here (again heel first and a few times landing short for some reason) and a good example of the foundational weight distribution, foot alignment and stepping methods from ichimonji
    https://youtu.be/3-_5qH8bPzA?t=24m41s

    Here's an example of Noguchi-sensei doing the heel first stepping
    https://youtu.be/rKLcJ-emDa0?t=25s

    Here you can see an example of flat footed punch by Seno-sensei
    https://youtu.be/2nhyil7xzp0?t=16m45s
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree that punch, elbow, back fist (or shoulder strike) are good combo. This way within 1 step, you can execute 3 strikes. To use straight punch to set up upward elbow, or to use hook punch to set up side way elbow are excellent 2 moves combo.

    If you add "single leg" after "shoulder strike" (since you can bounce your opponent's leading leg off the ground, and into your hand), if you also add an "inner hook" to attack his back standing leg, it will be a nice 5 moves combo within just 1 step. This will be a nice striking and grappling integration.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  7. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    There would seem to be some rather extensive copyright infringement going on there.
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    To be honest, I was just talking about the timing of the foot landing with the punch striking on a straight lead punch.

    As for the dual or triple threat. I believe it is different if you strike along a curve (e.g. crescent shape). If there is a curve in the path, the distance must be shorter and the timing is different. After the foot lands, there is a slight delay to allow for the opponent to move into your strike.

    For example, if my leg attacks the opponent's leg, my strike is shorter and I must adapt the timing to allow the opponent to lean into my strike as a result of my leg attack. The timing of strike hitting when foot lands doesn't work in this case. Instead the strike hits short when the foot lands, but the power isn't lost because a moment later the opponent leans into the strike, taking most of the power, plus the power from them leaning into the strike.

    This to me is how a curved path leads to a double threat.

    IMHO.

    Edit: Maybe this is the occupying space aspect because the strike occupies space that only really hits the enemy if they are compelled to lean into it or conversely, I follow-up with a thrust to cover the distance.

    This makes sense. Stepping power is the conversion of downward/sinking power into the target. Even if the step is just a few inches or less.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    There is no need to worry about them leaning into or away from your strike. Your foot strikes at the same time as the hand. Think of tackling a guy at the exact instant your friend hit him in the face. The punch would help push him backwards if the timing was exact, if the tackle was slightly faster, the head might move forward into the punch or recede in front of it. As the hand has more reach than the leg and the target is further away in general in the oitsuki scenario, it is not a problem if his head moves back.

    If he moves back too far and your punch won't be effective, you are still compromising his base(and his lead arm) so he has helped off balance himself more and is in worse position for your next attack.
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Still hard for me to imagine the foot and the hand striking at the same time without the punch striking short. You changed the timing. First you said:

    So are you stating that the foot strikes the opponent same time as the punch hits the opponent OR are you saying the foot touches the ground at the same time as the punch hits the opponent?

    If you mean the foot strikes the opponent and then the punch strikes as the foot touches the ground, then this slight delay allows for the effect of the kick to add to the power of the punch.

    If you are saying foot strikes the opponent same time as the punch, the punch will be shortened... meaning the power of the punch is reduced as well as the range. Try it, kick and strike something at exactly the same time, the strike comes up short UNLESS you get the opponent to lean into it.

    Are you sure you actually mean a punch with this timing? The kick and hand striking at the same time does work with finger strikes that don't depend on as much power. They can still hit hard with conditioning because the surface area of the finger strike is small. I can see striking with the fingers and landing with a kick at the same time at the same range to be effective.

    I must be missing something. Do ninjas have really long arms?
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    In the description you posted, I was talking about punching. Not talking about oitsuki. Oitsuki isn't just one punch, it is a multiple attack. As such, it is different from just doing a jab, cross, or other strike where you are stepping.

    The arm is attached to the shoulder, so even though it is shorter than a leg, the shoulder joint is closer to the opponent's face. You are stepping from your front foot already near their front foot so you have plenty of reach, even if they lean back. Simultaneously striking above and below is a cornerstone of our ryu, it is called ashirai. When you strike above and below together, there are three timings that can happen. The easiest and in my mind most effective, is for the timings to match. You expend less effort and don't have to worry about creating one thing or another. The foot slightly before the arm can work, but is harder to put as much power into the blow. The arm before the leg doesn't really make sense in the case of oitsuki.

    If you watch the footwork with weapons, you can see how it translates to empty hand.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_BIHziuig"]1993 Tai Kai Huelva 1 - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
  12. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    Here is a good example of the basic movements in the footwork of tsuki.
    This is not the end form but keiko waza for getting the right timing, line, alignment etc.

    The footwork used in this ashibarai is the same as in tsuki.
    In this example the ashibarai is done more on the spot, but the basic movement is the same for going forward.

    https://www.facebook.com/BujinkanNederland/videos/1610491535867856/
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not sure what you mean? The footwork is nothing like that of tsuki. It is a good example of yoko aruki to a pivoting front stance but that has nothing to do with tsuki. It is more akin to the footwork of hicho after the kick.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52T_AzVm77w"]Masaaki Hatsumi. Kihon Happo: Hicho-no kamae - YouTube[/ame]

    Don't get me wrong, there isn't much wrong with the performance(I wouldn't lean forward before doing the thrust though and would make sure my upper body movement and lower body movement matched) but it isn't the same footwork.


    Again, what is the same? There is no pivoting motion in tsuki off the front foot like that. Depending on if you start from shizen or ichimonji when you do the tsuki, you wouldn't be stepping like that. That is one way of moving forward, but not the only way.

    There was an extra step in there by the way. Not sure what it was for. I'd add that Kukinshinden ryu bojutsu and Gyokko ryu are quite different in footwork, though some things are universal.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiU-x1zngrQ"]Kihon no Renshu fondamentali Ninja - YouTube[/ame]

    We can learn from anything luckily. Here are you good examples of how not to practice tsuki. And kamae, and...
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  14. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    Actually this is the way it is practiced in the Ishizuka dojo at the beginner level.
    https://www.facebook.com/BujinkanNed...0491535867856/

    So for you to say (PR) that it is wrong makes me doubt your understanding of Tsuki as Ishizuka sensei is famous for his mastering of the basics and Tsuki and often used as an example by Hatsumi sensei for having perfect form.

    The leaning forward is an essential part before the thrust. Among othe things it makes sure your front leg is strong and it crosses the distance between you and your opponenent in a way that is hard to detect. Also if you look at the original Ura Gyaku in Kihon Happo that Hatsumi sensei learned from Takamtsu sensei you will see exactly the same movement for doing the kata.
    If you dont put your weight on your front foot you won't be able to do the pivot and take the line in that version of ura gyaku (and in Tsuki there is an opening/weakness in the center line)

    The Yoko Aruki is there to teach the right timing and line for the pivot.
    In a normal Tsuki it would not be there, its an educational tool.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You May idolize Kacem and Ishizuka Sensei, that's fine. However, you pretty much parroted what I wrote, which was that the footwork was not the same as tsuki, in particular oitsuki.

    Sure, you need to control your weight and make sure that your weight transfers from foot to foot with the strike, but you don't lean forward because it's unnecessary, brings your head forward towards his headbutt or rear hand, and can negatively affect your own balance. Your footwork can be strong by sinking and maintaining a straight posture. Our arts are taijutsu, which means your whole body should be moving in concert. Leaning without footwork and then doing a bo strike like shown in that video doesn't make sense.

    Your bringing up ura gyaku notwithstanding(would be nice to see a visual), excess leaning is not beneficial and promotes a dangerous habit. The line for oitsuki isn't really straight in anyway, that is a basic beginners learning tool. When you actually do oitsuki on an opponent, you don't want to be in a straight line in front of you(you do come in on a straight line), but you want to come in at an angle diagonal to his face and outside his front shoulder/leg. Bojutsu is also learned on a line for basics, but as you advance, you will find that the footwork is very much not on a line in adherence to kuki sabaki.

     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  16. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Actually, the Fudo ryu style of punching kind of illustrates the point. Hatsumi sensei doesn't lean as much when stepping forward, he does slightly more for the versions where he pulls the leg back, though the important aspect for that version is making sure the weight goes over the front knee so it can be achieved by either leaning some or sinking the weight lower onto the front leg. Again, these are slightly different kinds of attacks than oitsuki, but there are good reasons against leaning but the ones for it, "My teacher is well known as being a model of good form," doesn't quite hack it.
     
  18. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    Its not excessif leaning of you do it correctly. It has to do with the position of the hip. If your hip position is correct you cannot take the balance forward nor backward.

    Also the idea if moving outside of the centerline in tsuki is ridiculus especially when you talk about weapons. Move outside of the center line and you give me an opening. Give me a weapon and you die ;-)

    The footwork is the same for learning tsuki and ashi barai. And the end result for the movement is the same when you leave out the eductional tool of yoko aruki. So it is the same at the beginner level in Ishizuka senseis dojo.

    I don't idolize anybody but I do think both Ishizuka sensei and Kacem are both excellent teachers and they can put me down even if i fully resist. Not a lot of people in the Bujinkan can do that, even not some of the japanese shihan that everybody thinks are great.
     
  19. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    My teacher is a japanse shihan that I will not name but I think is awesome doesn't quite hack it either ;-)
    Nor does posting without divulging who you really are.

    Anybody who speaks japanese can easily verify Hatsumi sensei saying Ishizuka has excellent form. its been captured on video many times.

    I think the true form is rarely shown on video but only one on one.
    So posting video of Taikai or other public events are not really good for learning purposes as they almost never show the true form.
     
  20. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    What do you mean about moving outside of the centerline? My point was that in tsuki, you do not attack straight ahead of you like the one video of the guy doing Oitsuki that I posted a few pages ago. Most people when demonstrating it in practice do and thus are doing it wrong. That is a basic fact of our ryu, you move offline, not straight ahead. You always come in on a different angle(斜). That is Takamatsuden 101. Especially with weapons.

    The footwork is not the same, you pointed out so yourself after I did. Yoko aruki footwork and oitsuki footwork are different. Also, to be honest, yoko aruki is more fluid and less stompy. You have to be able to move your weight and restep instantly if you need to so it should feel lighter and more ninjalike. Not like Kevin Millis and Jack Hoban on stage at a Taikai like if you know what I mean.

    Leaning for no reason and leaning when it isn't necessary is bad taijutsu, period. I described several reasons why. You haven't refuted that, just move to use Ishizuka sensei's name as proof. How about you use logic and good principles? I don't have to name my teacher, nor do I need to post videos to prove a point. You posted a video and made a claim, which was incorrect(as I pointed out and you later confirmed). It's no big deal.
     

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