Sorry to resurrect this thread after a number of months of inactivity, but I'm new here and have just read the previous pages with interest. I trained with the WJJF for a few years and attained black belt with them. In the classes I attended there was quite a lot of breakfall practice and injuries were a very rare occurrence. During some of the seminars I met some very good (in my opinion) martial artists and people who I believe could easily have given a good account of themselves if they had ever needed to fight. With regard to the gi's, at no point did I ever have to buy an official WJJF gi although at certain grades I was expected to have certain patches sewn on. Gradings were not so much a formality - you did have to perform to a good standard and the assessor wasn't from your local club and if your instructor didn't think you were good enough you weren't put forward to grade. However, now I think about it I don't recall ever seeing anyone fail a grading. I started with the WJJF because I wanted to learn to throw people and how to use joint locks and they were the only Ju Jitsu class I found near me. They taught me what I had set out to learn. However, to compare what was taught in the classes to BJJ is really unfair - the amount of time we spent rolling was zero. Any groundwork was primarily putting a lock on the person you had just thrown. All partner work was compliant to the point of being almost choreographed. There was no sparring (because it's too dangerous if the "red mist" comes down or for fear of being sued if bones do get broken?) and not until studying for 2nd dan do you have to deal with left handed punches or doing left handed throws. A fair bit of the lower grade syllabusses deal with typical self defence scenarios; escapes from bear hugs or head locks etc and after black belt there is quite a lot of weapon work. I wouldn't recommend it as an effective self defence system because of the lack of realism - you know what attack to expect, punches/kicks come from a good distance away, compliant partner etc - and I think there is a danger that perhaps some people may think they are better prepared if the worst does happen than they really are. I also wouldn't have thought that BJJ is great for self defence either though, no striking and trying to get position and submission isn't really going to be as effective on the street as in the dojo. But it must be said that I know very little about BJJ having only ever tried about 3 classes in my life. I don't think WJJF are any worse than many other martial arts schools out there irrespective of style. There are limitations, and there are strengths. I believe if you have a good instructor you can benefit from the training, but if your instructor just sees it as a business and all focus is on the next belt rather than learning skills then it won't be that benficial.
I think you should take a few more bjj classes, then try out some of their theoretical positional hierarchy in MMA. :]
Nursing a broken metacarpal at the moment but once recovered I will be trying bjj again as my current club has a friendship with the ju jitsu brotherhood.
Why compare Really interesting thread here guys. I've been training with the WJJF for over 4 years. Everything that has been mentioned has merit, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Here's mine... Like anything in life, results depend on the effort you put in. My sensei, is superb. He has kept my interest going and taught me a great deal. Not least of which... accept the fact that you could or will get hit. Please show me a martial art that after any length of time will furnish an individual with the skills to never get hit!!!!!! The video of a white belt submitting a black belt was very interesting, and he shows great technique... but what we are watching is a grapple contest, something that the bjj practitioner is supposed to win. If he didn't would you not have the same concerns over bjj! The WJJF syllabus has very little groundwork so actually irrespective of belt colour it seems like a bit of a mismatch to me. We are talking about the difference in tache waza v ne waza. Jujitsu HAS to use compliant uke's, if we didn't we would soon run out. Besides compliant or not, if you just learn the technique from the wjjf syllabus without understanding the principles of why and what you are doing how can you ever be effective. Look at judo (my personal favourite as a martial art sport). U can barely recognise a technique in competition, but it is learnt with compliant uke's... how else can you learn what are very complex techniques. I questioned the effectiveness of what i was learning, but my sensei has allowed and encouraged me to experiment to find my own style and become effective with the confines of what he is teaching. Its no different to a golf swing. No one will swing like tiger, but you can learn to do the best YOU can that works for you. My advice... just enjoy it, you wont become superman because of belt colour, but you can become a better person for trying. What ever style of martial art you choose, understand it and how it varies, long or short style. Simples!!!!
No it most certainly is not and when I hear "compliant uke" as a positive comment I have to go stab a puppy
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UXeqv0LAC8&spfreload=10"]Funniest Boxing Dodges Ever.mp4 - YouTube[/ame] No, if a blackbelt in judo destroyed a white belt in bjj we would not have concerns about bjj. It would be expected that someone versed in one grappling art would be able to triumph over a novice in another grappling art. Sounds like it is an incomplete art for self defense. Sounds like you don't know what to do with someone once you get them to the ground. Judo most certainly trains in a compliant and noncompliant manner. I don't know what you're talking about with the 'you can't recognize technique in competition.' You most certainly can. And yet there is still a mechanically best way of hitting a golf ball with a golf club. You don't make excuses for being bad at it by saying 'well that's just my style,' you learn how to hit the damn ball properly. These sounds like excuses.
You can include progressive resistance in your training, even in kata-geiko. So I don't see why you can't do it in WJJF practice. I'd actually buy into what you are saying if I saw any WJJF practice that resembles good solid kata practice being used with some of the nastier old school waza but unfortunately that's hasn't been the case. It more often than not just resembles a poorly done approximation with no regard for how uke is attacking or how they are behaving, that's why we see a lot of poor attacks and wet lettuce uke. Judo has a fair bit of randori in it and other alive methods, of course early on you need to learn the a,b,c of the waza a but after that things need ramping up.
I've told you before, you need to control these urges. I thought we had agreed that you would only beat one..................with a kitten?
As someone who has trained in jujutsu for about 15 years, no it doesn't. When first attempting techniques you need an almost-entirely compliant uke so that you can learn the mechanics of the technique, but after that you should be introduced to varying degrees of resistance to 1) perfect the technique itself and 2) teach you to spot opportunities to use that technique for real. When you up the resistance you tend to find that the simple idea of attack leading to beautiful flowing defence technique goes out the window very quickly. Instead you find yourself training to ward off a flurry of attacks, get into an effective fighting range for jujutsu (typically a clinch), strike a couple of times and throw or lock from there. There are degrees of resistance, and training exclusively with a complaint uke will ultimately plateau your training far too early and leave you with an exaggerated estimate of your own ability. Just going to drop this video here. It was the first one to appear in my search for "Olympic Judo". If you're going to claim that you can barely recognise techniques in this video then it's simply because you haven't learned about making variations to techniques depending on situation. The throwing in this video is a beautiful set of exemplary judo techniques. Edit: apparently the video didn't post earlier: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BFsWIYSYco[/ame] I don't think anyone's claiming that you do away with compliance altogether. Compliance teaches you the basics of the technique, but it's important that you move some way away from pure compliance as soon as possible in training, otherwise it leads to very sloppy technique as soon as anything non-standard happens. Claiming that you'd "run out" of uke simply by being non complaint ignores the vast number of scenarios that the phrase "non-complaint" covers. No-one's suggesting that after a short period of compliant training you should immediately move to full contact fully resisting sparring for the rest of your training life, but at the same time it shouldn't be a case of going through your training career with barely any deviation from the very complaint drills.
A good sensei will be uke to introduce the student to the technique. It is part of his or her roll to then gradually increase the amount of resistance and throw in the odd curve ball. In traditional Japanese dojo, this is one of the reasons why the senior will often assume the roll of uke in the first instance. Gary
Now Thats a Debate!!! Thanks for all the feedback and opinions. Let me just correct a couple of things; Yes resistance is gradually increased as you progress, it IS the only way to progess and become effective. I should perhaps note that my club does encourage open randori beyond a certain ability. Typically mid way through the kyu belts with increased resistance and unrehearsed attacks. Ok... the video of the bower slipping the punches is impressive. Did they not get one punch in the fight!!? Easy to pick out the best technique in bytes Ok... the judo statement was sweeping. Point well made and accepted. The best thing in all the comments is that increasing resistance and intensity of training does lead to beautiful flowing technique. I cant profess to be an expert... i love studying the art. The thread was started as a discussion on the WJJF. I wanted, as a wjjf member, to give a brief insight into what my experience was of WJJF... To be clear; Its not by any means perfect It does have its faults but the McDojo reference is a bit extreme It has focus on certain waza probably at the expense of being a more rounded syllabus Im not trying to compare or detract from any other style The WJJF, is what it is. You either put the effort in and learn or you don't. For me its given me enough of an insight into jutitsu to want to study it more. Surely that has some merit
Thanks for sharing your opinion, Grazza. Do you feel the WJJF syllabus satisfies all your needs for martial arts?
If im honest no based on just the syllabus. But my sensei encourages divergence from the standard techniques. He wants us to learn and understand the principles and mechanics. A lot of the criticism of the WJJF seems to be around the 'learnt' techniques not being effective. The syllabus is learnt for grading purposes, after that the other students at my club have a great deal of experience in other arts, judo, karate, bjj, systema etc So we do get to cross train quite extensively. I should add that we left the WJJF and now fall under WJJF Australia (separate organisation - Soke Alan Campbell). As a result Sensei is developing our syllabus to address what might be perceived as weaknesses in the syllabus. WJJF or other organisation... i think its down to the quality of coaching and commitment from the student that makes any art effective.
What rubbish, theres better grond fighting during a fifth grade recess session. Im sick and tired of these lame posts, the recent sword video infuriated me for the entire day.
I truely dont want to sound mean here but... That sounds like the worst martial arts course Ive ever heard of in my life, no sparring, thats just too weird for me to digest at this late hour..
Sounds like you have a switched-on instructor. Openmindedness is always commendable and only serves to improve the student's learning experience imo. I think you hit the nail on the head with your last point. WJJF is getting a lot of criticism in this thread, but honestly, its practices aren't all that different from organisations across other styles like karate, TKD, even BJJ. Glass houses and all that.
Indeed you lot in those arts probably shouldn't comment. Ahem...right as I have the thread to myself now......
