What happens if your in a fight and the Law?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Mtal, Apr 15, 2006.

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  1. Mtal

    Mtal Valued Member

    A couple a weeks ago, I went to an event. Was coming out of it, and there were a few guy drinking by the exit, and one of them said something really stupid to me, and his friend said something too. Now down the hall were a few cops on duty also. Now as usual, I just walked away, but then I was wondering, if I turned around and said something to put him in his place (I would have loved to tell him off, but I know these days it seeems like your asking for a fight even if your in the right), and he threw a punch, and I decked him or say put a lock on him, or even lets say his friends get into it too, what happens to me and the law?

    Just wondering. One of my friends told me that the police (oh I live in the US) usually arrest everyone and figure it out at the jail. That would not have been fun since I went away for the weekend.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Gasg

    Gasg Valued Member

    Your friend's probably in the right. It depends on some factors, but still, i doubt cops have any way to tell by simply looking at a fight who's the troublemaker, who's in the right, etc. (I mean if both fighters actually do fight, and not one simply taking hits...).

    Maybe a cop have a better answer, but the way i see it, is kinda like teachers in school :"I dont wanna hear who started, you're both getting detentions"
     
  3. Alienfish360

    Alienfish360 Valued Member

    I asked this question to an old friend of mine who's a police officer.

    If he attacks you, he has assaulted you, if you have provoked the attack, he is in the wrong, but chances are the penalty won't be enough.

    You CAN defend yourself using necessary force, once you are in control of the situation, if you then continue to attack you are assaulting him.

    You must stop when you have control of the situation, if he hits you, and you put him on the floor, you cannot continue to attack.
     
  4. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Use the "search" function, this has been talked about to death.

    As one of the resident attorneys living and working in the US (and focusing in criminal law), the best thing I can say is that "it's situational". The hard and fast rule given by Alienfish360 about having "control of the situation" is a nice theory, not necessarily good law (especially since AF360 lives in England and you live in the US).

    Quick self-defense pointers:

    -You cannot provoke someone into hitting you and then claim self-defense. For example, making fun of some dude's mom and getting him to hit you because you want a fight but aren't man enough to throw the first punch? Not self-defense.

    -You have a duty to retreat. Unless you are in your own home, you must make every conceivable effort to remove yourself from the situation. Many MAPers like to play "tough guy" and bitch about this one, but it's true. The whole idea of "run away" is the law, like it or not.

    -You must use like force againt the aggressor. If drunken fool #1 hits you with a sloppy haymaker, you can't bash him over the head with an ashtray or pull out a knife. You can't elevate the level of force used and then claim self-defense. Lord knows enough of my clients get arrested for turning some macho bs alpha male pushing match into a full-blown fight. :rolleyes:

    -Deadly force is very restricted. In PA (where I live and work), deadly force may only be used where the aggressor is attempting to commit the following crimes against your person: murder, rape, kidnapping, serious bodily injury. If that is not the case, you better have a good reason for whacking Mr. Mugger over the head with a mace. :)

    -Taking into account the above guidelines, self-defense, as a rule, is in the eye of the victim. In most areas of the law, especially in criminal law where the self-defense statute lives, decisions are based upon the "reasonable person" standard. Basically, you ask yourself "what would a reasonable person do in this situation?" Self-defense is purely objective, and the trier of fact has the obligation to look at the situation through your eyes. That doesn't make it the unbeatable defense, mind you, it just means it's subjective under a specific set of guidelines.

    Anyhoo, there is your brief run down of the law of self-defense (in this case, Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, Title 18, Crimes and Offenses, Section 505, The Use of Self-Defense.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2006
  5. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Great post mate. Good to have someone who knows what he is talking about.
     
  6. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Danke Schoen, NK. Methinks we need a sticky for it :D

    Of course, I'm willing to bet a case of beer that we'll get the silly "Judged by 12 versus carried by 6" nonsense before this thread has run its course. :rolleyes:
     
  7. thepunisher

    thepunisher Banned Banned

    I agree with NK. Very well informed post there. And thanks for those self-defence guidelines. :)

    Christian
     
  8. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Nice points gc and tie in with what i've been told of uk law from magistrates & police officers , especialy the duty to retreat bit :)
     
  9. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    thanks guys... now go tell the MODs we need a "self-defense" sticky, dammit!
     
  10. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Hey there 15 on a jury in Scotland (no chance of a tied verdict but we do have that ******* verdict).
     
  11. Mtal

    Mtal Valued Member

    Thanks for all the info guys. I knew I did the right thing, but now I feel even better.

    One other question, GangrelChilde, I think I heard about this before and you touched apon it. If someone verbaly insluts someone to the point the person who is getting insulted throws a punch, how does that work?

    GangrelChilde, thanks again for all the info btw and everyone else who posted.
     
  12. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Good stuff!

    You should write a sticky! :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2006
  13. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    remember the expression "Sticks and stones"

    verbal provocation is no justification for one to escalate a confrontation to violence.

    The Clash "I fought the law and the law won " :cool:
     
  14. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Words =/= reason to haul off and hit someone. As I noted earlier, just because someone insults your mom, dad, dog, girlfriend, and your penis size, you can't hit them. That's a crime.

    Having said that, there is one exception... If someone is clearly threatening you and following that up with clearly assaultive behaviour, then you can retaliate. For example, some yoyo comes up to you, says "I'm gonna kick your ass", and grabs you. Clearly, the aggressor has made it clear they want a fight. As long as you don't overreact, you should be ok.

    The reason the above scenario merits a defense but the first one doesn't is the nature of the words and the acts accompanying the words. In many states, the uttering of a threat is a crime (in Pennsylvania, it's harassment, disorderly conduct, or terrorsitic threats depending on the nature of the words and the hard-headedness of the police and prosecutors; in other states, it may be called something else). The obvious follow-through is also a crime; any unwanted, unlawful contact is assault or harassment. The first one? That was just childishness.

    Knowing the law in your hometown and using common sense is the best self-defense!
     
  15. Trampler

    Trampler Fire upon the Void

    I didn't know that Kindred are so interested in laws of the cows... :D
    Good posts btw.. :eek:
     
  16. scorpiousmac

    scorpiousmac Valued Member

    unless you want to fight walk away,as you stated in the u.s much as in england you will be penilised by the law for not walking away.i'm sure that in some countries given enough provocation you could slap them silly for ridiculing your manhood but not where i'm from and this definatly makes me think before responding to any threat or insult.At the end of the day though it's up to you,if you dont want to let it lie there is always the option no matter where you are to take umbridge if you so wish,the law cannot prevent a person acting on his/hers desires only punish them afterwards.
     
  17. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Some excellent posts GangrelChilde. Is the duty to retreat something particular to PA or is it noted in other states? I see that it says you must make every effort to remove yourself from the situation, does this allow for pre-emptive strikes?

    As for the UK I've not seen any such thing. This doesn't mean that there isn't of course. I'm all for getting out of there as soon as, but I'm unsure about this "you must retreat". I would prefer "you must retreat when you believe it to be practical". Perhaps the law might interpret these as the same, perhaps not.

    Any thoughts/clarification?

    Can we quote sources of legal arguments, just as GangrelChilde has, so not to cause confusion? Thanks.

    As for the sticky, sounds like a good idea, why not PM one of the Mods or Admin staff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2006
  18. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Let's see...

    It's pretty common in the US. I'd say it's a safe bet that a majority of US states have a duty to retreat.

    Pre-emptive strikes are really touchy, and usually turn into assault charges. Unless you have a stich like I outlined earlier with a threat and overt act, I do not recommend pre-emptive strikes.

    Aren't you a topic MOD for self-defense, Judderman? If so, consider yourself PMed with this post. :D
     
  19. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Judder consider "public perception" in the equation.....

    If one is perceived to be going forward in the initial phase of a contact either my onlookers or you are caught on CCTV the perception is often that you are and aggressor and hence the instigator of any violence that occurs. However if you are seen to be backing away and your opponent follows you the perception is the other way around and will help ones cause in any possible legal issues that arise. Also by backing away you are creating a reactionary gap and will of course be stating aloud for the benifit of all and sundry that you have no wish to fight etc etc

    Pre emptive strkes are governed by Common Law in the England and Wales and are very much a subjective part of any incident. Honestly held believe of imminent attack of damage to ones property are part and parcel of the use of such force.

    Sect 3 Criminal Law act 1967 also gives every person powers to use reasonable force to make an arrest of a person.

    The Law is a funny thing really....so to are Jury's ...

    Take care

    Smurf :cool:
     
  20. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Smurf I would agree that the view of any witnesses, including CCTV, are important, but perhaps the key is to look defensive. Raised open hands looks defensive, but it is also key to good defense - a good fence.

    Retreating is not always the better part of valour as you are delaying the inevitable. Hannibal (a MAPper and LEO) often said that you will get into trouble more for what you say than what you do.

    There is a counter arguement of course. Making it law to retreat does, theoretically, cut into those who like to be big hard children and wave their ego around.

    GangrelChilde I believe that in the UK the law allows for someone to act in a reasonable manner towards a situation as they perceive it. Is there a similar allowance in US law? This would go some way to allowing pre-emptive strikes, but leaves you to the mercy of the judicial system more.

    As for being a Mod, I'm afaid not. If you contact Matt Bernius or any of the other Mod/Admin, they might be able to help.
     
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