HEMA style CMA.

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Ben Gash CLF, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    In the last few years there's been a new phenomenon of Chinese weapon recreationists springing up. I can kind of understand Jack Chen's Chinese longsword project, although I think it's now expanded in scope in ways that have become problematic. However we're now seeing groups teaching Dadao recreated from manuals.
    HEMA recreation from manuals is OK because it's all they've got, and people went through a prolonged study group phase before they started running professional schools. However for Chinese weapons there are extant living traditions. Chinese longsword is practised by Pigua groups, and prior to his untimely death was being very well disseminated by Mike Martello. Dadao is widely practised in TCMA, I teach it, and if I remember correctly from my time studying his system Tom Bayley does it too.
    Therefore manuals aren't the only option remaining and these groups don't seem to have gone through prolonged testing periods. I look at some of the material and just see people who can't move properly. I'm starting to understand how the Koryu people on here feel about modern JSA.
    What do you guys think?
     
  2. bigreddog

    bigreddog Valued Member

    I suppose the thought that comes to mind is that HEMA died out as warfare evolved so people have gone back to the records.
    Warfare evolved in China as well but the lineage of some groups teaching the weapons continued - but has it evolved from the way it was done when it was a battlefield art, and if so what are the differences i.e. is there anything in the manuals not in the lineage? Presumably so or there would be no point? [I should point out that I have no knowledge of the lineages etc,]

    I'd love to see the Chinese weapon arts pressure tested the same way some of the HEMA does with the medieval combat groups (its not without its problems but it a really interesting process) - not aware of much of that happening
     
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Sword, staff and spear were in common usage in China well into the 20th century, and certainly my system was codified before the Taiping rebellion and we have manuals from around the time of the Boxer Rebellion.
    The Ming manuals don't appear to offer anything more than the extant systems, indeed they're fairly unsophisticated.
    Various weapon sparring practices go on, there's just not much uniformity so it all happens in house. Indeed there were groups doing steel Jian fencing before it became the norm in HEMA. The rise of HEMA has meant good quality kit has become readily available, and steel sparring groups are developing. The biggest barrier is the cost, as a full set of HEMA armour costs the same as a year's training, and that's before you've bought swords. I believe that in the next decade we'll be seeing HEMA style Chinese fencing tournaments as a common thing.
     
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    As for evolution and retained function, the sabre mechanics in my system are very similar to Meyer's dussack.
     
  5. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Here's some examples of Chinese fencing that people came up with before HEMA gear became readily available
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76lc4DwCdG"]YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXFkbZkL6Fw"]Jian shu sparring - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bUz3ZocZQc"]World Jianshu League San Diego - YouTube[/ame]
     
  6. bigreddog

    bigreddog Valued Member

    Cool, thanks for the clarifications. If the styles currently being taught are still close to 'combat', and there is a bit of sparring going on, I agree that I can't see what is coming from the manuals
     
  7. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Trying to recreate something which is already a living practice: bad
    A more widespread high pressure testing format allowing the weapons training in CMA to be practiced under full resistance : good
     
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I seriously need these in my life [​IMG]
     
  9. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Wow those are as expensive as a really good pair of actual blades. That's rough for a training tool.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Most decent HEMA blades cost £200-£300 here which is the problem (and those are custom made). I don't know if they're any cheaper to make than sharps TBH, I think it's a fairly similar process. I'm going to experiment with making some butterfly knives and Dadao out of HDPE this month.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  11. huoxingyang

    huoxingyang Valued Member

    I agree with the observation that the fundamental difference between HEMA and HCMA (for want of a better term) is that many HCMA methods have survived into the modern era as part of current, living traditions and practices.

    Just some thoughts I have on the whole HCMA scene:

    1. Studying martial arts from books and manuals is not a new phenomenon in CMA, hence why these resources exist in the first place. It is also accepted to some degree as a valid way to learn stuff (despite what people might say) as CMA masters and practitioners continue to publish material.

    I think therefore that HCMA practices fit neatly into CMA culture. That there are people without a solid grounding in an existing CMA tradition trying to learn stuff from these materials seems to me to be nothing new either - it must have been happening as long manuals and books have been available on the general market.

    2. From an academic perspective, the study of techniques from historical sources could be considered as an interesting activity, particularly when methods can be compared to their modern incarnations.

    3. Looking at historical manuals can give us ideas about techniques and how they can be used or might have been used, that we simply wouldn't get through our modern traditions for various reasons.

    4. I think generally speaking, CMA these days typically lack testing of their own methods outside of specialised drills or two-man sets. Some of the better or more adventurous schools have been experimenting with weapons fencing and free sparring, but I would be inclined to suggest it is not that common. I think the growing interest in HCMA is only encouraging more people and schools to explore practical usage of Chinese weaponry including free play and sparring. I think this is a good thing.

    5. Jack Chen's longsword project is interesting to me precisely because he doesn't appear to have any background in modern CMA. His sole focus is on historical recreation, which gives a different perspective to things. I also think the project has gained a lot more attention and popularity than he probably intended it to. In any case, I see him very much as an "enabler" and someone who has inspired and helps others to explore the things he is from their own perspectives and martial backgrounds - as far as I know he is very up front about his sources and makes no claims to be anything more than he is - a guy who is translating and recreating HCMA.

    What I think will be really interesting will be to compare the outcomes of Scott Rodell's current project to re-interpret the dan dao fa xuan (http://steelandcotton.tumblr.com/post/137110556681/its-the-the-year-of-the-dandao-but-that-doesnt). Jack Chen has already produced material based on this manual and it will be interesting to see how someone with years of experience in CMA interprets it, in terms of similarities as well as differences.
     
  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I think the issue is what is he recreating it with? When you see his staff work you can see some real issues with it, which then makes you question his interpretation of the other stuff.
     
  13. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    However, like I say I can somewhat see the point in what Jack is doing, it's what he's enabling that is more the issue.
     
  14. huoxingyang

    huoxingyang Valued Member

    As far as I can tell he's just trying to make it work in a way that seems plausible to him and that matches the pictures and descriptions.

    The most important thing I think is that he is making those same pictures and descriptions he is using available to everyone else, and no one has to agree with his interpretations or re-enactments.
     
  15. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    When my teacher was learning his teacher originally was not going to teach him weapons forms. His teachers argument was that fencing competitions were no longer held and people no longer carried weapons ( spears, tiger forks etc) so what was the point?

    Fortunately my teacher felt that it was important to preserve the knowledge for knowledge's sake and his teacher acknowledged this argument. Consequently we have more weapon forms and fights than you can shake a short, eyebrow height, eight foot or nine point stick at.

    The big problem is having the time to practice them in application as well as in forms. i was toying with the idea of joining my local Hema club so that I could do some pressure testing. but to be honest there just aren't enough hours in my day.
     
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Just in terms of looking to recreate lost application in my opinion the Philapino arts have a good live tradition of blade fighting. Indonesian arts also but these tend to be closed where as the Philapino arts are more open to outsiders. It can be augured that the philopino blade arts are likely to be closely related to the Chinese Dao arts due to a close association through trade for Hundreds of years.
    So if you were looking to bring the Doa back to life the philopenes might be a good place to look for inspiration.
     
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Having done some FMA I'd say it teaches you a lot about the butterfly knives but doesn't necessarily translate well to longer Dao (at least for me).
     
  18. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Dao - saber - is generally heavier than Phillapino Saber - which makes it more tricky to turn fluently. Some CMA systems e.g a lot of Baguazhang systems use very large Saber.

    I have not seen anything else like CMA Jian with full-length double edged blade, which mandates its general style and usage e.g. no self-protection from blunt edge.

    There are a lot of Phillapino swords, so I could be wrong.
     
  19. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    The Doa does not have to be heavy. I have seen many examples of a similar weight to some of the broader bladed Philippino swords.
    It is my understanding that the big Sabers used in baugua are for training purposes not for fighting.
     
  20. blindside

    blindside Valued Member

    The Filipino arts have also been influenced by European arts and many of them are not actually blade arts at all at this point so you have to be careful about where you are looking at similarities. But as a single-edged slash oriented long blade there are going to be some obvious overlaps in technique.
     

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