Aikido video(s) that describe the trajectory that Nage's hands (and Uke) follow

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Greetings!, Mar 17, 2016.

  1. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Greetings everyone,

    Many of you have observed my initial growing pains with starting my practice of Aikido, just over a year ago, as is evidenced by your wonderfully helpful responses to my past inquiry posts here on our awesome MAP website. If you’ll recall, I have repeatedly stated that I have a great deal of respect and admiration for my Aikido instructor. He being a second degree black belt (which is perhaps not as high as many of you here that I frequently observe posting), he has always been very personable, approachable, knowledgeable and informative in regard to Aikido. He also moves as swift and graceful as a cat. Thus, I am quite sure that he is very competent as far as Aikido instructors are concerned.

    I do not think that I should have to apologize for the following, but, I’ll just mention that I have a background as formerly being an engineer. [Please don’t hold that against me. :) ] That being said, it helps me to, when describing orientation or positioning, to occasionally say to my aikido instructor after he has done a demonstration of a particular aikido technique, “As you are doing [ikkyo, nikkyo, shohinage, sukku men, or whatever …]? … are you moving your hand within a [for instance] [plane parallel to the floor?, … or, in a plane that is diagonal to …, … are you tracing the line of a … etc. …]?”

    My terminology that I am using does not seem to be always understood by my instructor. For example, I will like to occasionally describe the trajectory for a particular movement in one way, and he will respond to describing the trajectory in another way.

    I don’t believe that this is because I am totally not getting it, but rather, it is because he is not correctly using, what I guess I’ll refer to it as, traditional geometric or engineering terms in their originally intended correct sense.

    I do not fault him for this. He is obviously a very intelligent man, as evidenced by my conversations with him inside and outside of class. It’s just when it comes to speaking about path or trajectories of, for instance, Nage’s hand, arm, or the path that Uke is taking during the movement, he just doesn’t know how to speak in the correct traditional geometric or engineering terms, probably just like, I would imagine, most other aikido instructors probably can’t do this either. It’s probably more fair to say that probably most people in the world can’t speak or understand things in terms of geometric or engineering references.

    [If you feel that my post is taking on an air of superiority, please, even though I understand geometry or engineering, I also acknowledge or am aware of many other kinds of deficiencies that I have in my life. However, since I nicely understand geometry, that is, as to exactly what are the precise definitions of a point, line, arc, plane, etc., … hey, I might as well try to find a way to capitalize on this strength of mine. :) ]

    I occasionally hear a reference to, for instance, “... This [particular aikido throw] utilizes the concept of a circle where [blank] is making the path of a circle. ...” I honestly don’t see the “circle” that that person is referring to. I am sure that it is a simple circle, but, I need to know, “Does the circle stay within [this particular plane], or, is it in this [other particular plane], or in this [other particular plane]? Or, does the plane that the [particular movement] is in change throughout during the course of the movement? … (because it sure looks that way to me (?) )”

    If I appear as being overly-analytical, I don’t believe that I am. That is, if you were present in my class as I occasionally casually ask my instructor these questions, I believe that you would think that I was being reasonable.

    I believe that if there is someone out there that can express to me these various aikido movements within traditional geometric or engineering terms that that would allow me to understand Aikido better, at least to initially better understand it cerebrally. Subsequently, I can then use this cerebral understanding as a good mental guide in order to then ultimately translate into teaching my hands and body into better posturing for that particular aikido throw.

    Frankly, right now, I am just guessing as to how my hands are to move or flow by my best observations of sensei.

    There being a lot of aikido videos out there on all kinds of aikido topics, especially on YouTube, therefore, is there some sort of video, or series of videos, that talks in terms of, for instance, lines, planes, circles, etc., or other analytical ways to describe the path or trajectory of an aikido throw?

    Thank you very much for listening to me.

    Any responses would be greatly appreciated.

    Take good care,

    Greetings!
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nicely worded post, but I really don't get what you are asking for exactly.

    If you are asking about trajectory, I would say that all trajectory is based on triangles. For example, if uke's two feet form two points of a triangle, a third-point might be to the rear off their front foot. This is an unbalance point you are throwing them into.

    The circles are not trajectory, but circles are used to control uke. Circles are based on pivot points, so all you need to know is what are the proper pivot points for the technique. For example, when transitioning from Ikkyo to Nikkyo, you can "roll the thumb" so the pivot point becomes the base of the thumb (basically where you maintain constant contact with uke's hand/wrist). None of the circles are completely round either. They often are ever shrinking circles, like a spiral. And the circles often change directions throughout the technique. Remember I said that circles are used to control uke, so the ever shrinking circles that change direction make it very hard for uke to adjust to and counter your technique.

    Finally, you want to finish strong. This is described as square.

    I just discussed triangle, circle, square... how is that for geometry?
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Copy what he is showing you - rinse, repeat

    Call it what you want in your own head - the labels are meaningless
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  5. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I never knew you were born in the North of England! :D
     
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Videos, no, I don't know of any, but you'll probably love the pictures in the book "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook.

    As an engineer you can understand and appreciate (1) there are different orientation systems for mathematically describing the same exact movement from a fixed point of view, and (2) that movement is relative to one's point of view. Put the origin, or the "observer," somewhere else and the same event looks different.

    As an illustration think of nage's hands as a satellite in orbit. We can run the mathematics for an orbiting satellite with the origin on the bore arm of the satellite, or from the center of the earth, or from the surface of the earth at the ground station, or from the center of the sun, or from a particular star, or from --- literally anywhere. Orbital engineers routinely switch between orientation systems because different systems make different tasks easier.

    For aikido, the best system is that nage's hands go up and down in front of his own chest. The reference point -- the "origin" -- is nage's own chest. An outside observer might think that nage's hands are on some other line, but that's because he sees nage's body turning. But the hands don't know that the body turned. The hands are always in front of the chest just going up and down.

    Try that.
     
  8. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Rebel Wado and Hannibal,

    Thank you for your advisements.

    Dead pool,

    Thank you for the links which I am looking forward to viewing later.

    SWC Sifu Ben,

    Thank you for your advisement as well as the link to the comprehensive study guide.

    AikiMac,

    Thank you for your very informative narrative which I will want to read more than once in order to fully digest its helpful information.

    The best to all,
    Greetings!
     
  9. BklynJames

    BklynJames Kung Fu New Jack

    AikiMac hit it on the head with the book "The Dynamic Sphere of Aikido". As I grow in Aikido I read the book about once a year and I start to understand it more and more as time goes on. The way to learn about trajectory is to just practice as much as possible. Just keep going to class and train, and as you train you will its easier to take Uke down to the ground. Remember your taking someones center and basically making them fall on their own. Most teachers will make movements to a junior class VERY big as to explain to them how it looks in the bigger picture. But as time goes on your movements will shrink as you start to understand more and more. Dont rely on videos, rely on your training. Nothing will take its place
     

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