The first time I realized I was and continue to be sympathetic to feminism I was a 19 year old idiot. I was talking with my girlfriend about some subject, I can't even remember what it was, but all of a sudden the idea that I might have 0 idea what I was talking about entered my mind. That there might be a world of experiences I've never witnessed, or have had the privilege of ignoring simply because of my gender and the world's attitude towards that gender. At the time, I was also reading Hannah Arendt, On Revolution and The Banality of Evil, and the thought came to mind that feminism was one of the most successful and least bloody revolutions and the patriarchal structures in our society were not a product of men in a blackened room, but more people accepting, unthinkingly and passively, the attitudes and norms from societies past. So, how do we begin to discuss feminism? It's a movement that stretches back at least to the 1800s, with a diverse set of values, motives, interests and figures at the fore. I wanted to open this up to discussion as a whole, but also wanted to share a few resources to peruse at someone's leisure. If you find yourself making one of these arguments, well… stop: http://www.derailingfordummies.com This is a good primer on discussing feminism and the proper approach: http://www.xyonline.net/content/feminism-101-helpful-hints-dudes Here is a grand overview of the history of feminism: https://docs.google.com/a/lehigh.edu/document/d/1TpHPEo3pG-QlB7dWCF-fcJFgayFmlQia-RjpKQGFP4A/edit So… that should get us started. I'm not really sure if this is a serviceable introduction to the topic, or a suitable launching point for discussion. Potential topics I could see coming up are "Egalitarianism vs. Feminism," "Anita Sarkeesian and Gamergate," "Modern political oppression of women," etc., etc.
Should we post our backgrounds and views on certain topics or elements to start? I'm really not sure there's much to say for most of us, but would it be relevant why some of us support/don't support a viewpoint or should we skip past it? If it's not too much to ask, I'd like to hear people's opinions on #gamergate to start us off as I'm not entirely sure what to think of the whole debacle.
I don't understand the purpose of the thread. Is it to discuss our own views on feminism, or to discusss how what we understand feminism to be, or to critique the various links that you posted?
Is that not Feminism?? My (perhaps simplistic) understanding is that feminism postulates that people should be treated equally regardless of gender.
Re: feminism vs equalism. I too understood that they basically meant the same - though I can understand how the name "feminism" can be seen as the counterpart of "maschilism". Is your preference of equalism merely a preference of terms or do you think there's a substancial difference between the two?
I think Chadderz means he supports all people equally regardless of gender and such. Ironically enough despite my mistrust of modern feminism, I honestly feel I fall into the same category and happily call myself "egalitarian". But as for feminism...yes/no. A lot of people will tell you that feminism stands for "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of obtaining the same rights as men in social, political, moral and legal areas of society" - which is does. That therefore it is all about equality. I think it's fair to say not everyone agrees with this view.
To be honest I too prefer the term egalitarianism as it's less confusing, and I think I understand what you're coming to. Care to expand though?
For me, modern feminism as a whole only prioritises women's rights and treatment. Which isn't a bad thing in itself. But there's no balance to it at all. Feminist theory and feminist columns as a whole do not concern themselves with equality for male rights in areas where men fall behind. And to be perfectly frank, the conduct of a lot of feminists in wider culture is every bit as bad as the kinds of behaviours they tend to criticise. Essentially I see feminism as the female equivalent of MRAs, which I know some people won't appreciate me saying.
Yup, I understand. To be fair there's a wide variety groups calling themselves feminists so you get all kind of things under that term, from groups mostly concerned about gender equality as a whole, i.e. with much more focus on men than you would usually expect, to groups that promote the traditional idea of femininity (the horror...). Personally, I'm of the idea that no true gender equality can be reached if the focus is on one gender only. A lot of sexism comes from not accepting men who differ from the traditional view of masculinity, and there should be more talking about that IMO - though as I said, it's mainly feminist groups who promote this. EDIT: I also appreciate there has to be some focus though. Ideally, you would have groups that promote the end of all discrimination - be it based on gender, race, sexual orientation etc. In practice though - from the point of view of activism - it would be too dispersive, so I guess there's some need for movements that are mostly about one problem, such as women's rights, LGBT rights or ethnic minorities' rights.
as i see it, egalitarianism "counts as" feminism when the mainstream environment leans away from equality, to the detriment of women, because by leaning towards equality you intrinsically start opposing to a given degree the institutions and normalized behaviours that are detrimental to women. the same however applies to all forms of discrimination, such as racism and homophobia. i would therefore make a semantic distinction that feminism in the male chauvinism-to-equality axis is instead the active move away from the male chauvinism side, with or without the intention to go right past equality and towards the other extreme to a given degree (of course that is entirely individual and to ascribe it to feminism as a whole would be dumb), and with or without any other ideological tendencies that could be mounted on an equality axis (since those would be separate issues from that with which feminism deals, although potentially intertwined in some cases). *crawls back under his rock*
Why should they? Should gay people concern themselves with the areas where hetero people fall behind (can't even imagine what those areas might be though)? Should racial minorities concern themselves with ways the majority racial group might fall behind? Again...can't even think of what those ways might even be. Why this fixation that feminists should be campaigning for men too? Men have had the upper hand since forever (and still do pretty much everywhere). I'm not bothered at all that some feminists aren't fighting for me too. If I feel strongly enough about something I'll fight for it myself. What kind of areas do you think men fall behind that you think feminists should be concerned about? The main one I can imagine is custody of children (which traditionally has been skewed towards women) but I have to say....I'm a little stumped after that. I look at my two kids...one female and one male...and I know which one is likely to have an easier path through life than the other. And it ain't the one who's favourite colour is (sadly) pink.
I'm thinking male identity or such. Males aren't allowed to express sensitivity or partake in activities traditionally seen as feminine. I can definitely see this as a feminist issue.
Heh...women have been saying forever that they wish men were more sensitive and take an active part in traditional female activities (child rearing for example). The thing enforcing that particular situation is men not wanting to appear weak to other men IMHO. Which isn't really a feminist issue as far as I can see.
And this comes straight from the ideas that 1) female = weak 2) man's opinion > woman's opinion Very feminist issues IMO.
Just this past weekend a friend of mine was teaching me how to knit. We also had a picnic, with an awesome picnic basket I bought at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. /me does what he wants >: O
Yeah fair comment. I just feel that if the interaction is male to male then it's up to men to sort it themselves. If I'm weak enough to think that changing my kids nappy makes me less of a man or something then that's my issue.
