When do you step in?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by FunnyBadger, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Bit of context required here before my questions. Well last night one of the guys on my unit was having a leaving do so after a few drinkies me and 3 guys I work with were at the kebab van on base (yup we have our own kebab van :) ).

    4 lads from another base near by happened to start a little argument with my mates (pretty sure it was about who's hellicopter was better-clearly a touchy issue for some folks) so I stepped inbetween the 2 groups told my guys to calm down and sent the other group to their block. One of my lads then starts gobbing off (normally the quietest guy around weirdly) at the other lads as they were walking away so they come back.

    Bit of posturing and one guy went for my mate and wrestled him to the ground. I stepped in again and pulled that lad off meanwhile the other 3 are also scrapping with the remaining 2 lads from my unit. Again I stepped inbetween them all pushed the groups apart told my lads to shut up and back down and told the other guys to fornicate away (not the words I used, TOS) to their beds.

    Coppers turned up took statements etc from me, the 3 guys I work with, the kebab man and a rather worried looking couple who just wanted some chips. The other group had left so no statements from them but I told the cops where they were staying. Luckily the witnesses backed up exactly what I had said so cops were happy and that was the end of the whole thing.

    Being over 6 foot and 15 stone (lean) and relative to the others at least fairly sober, being an ex doorman and having a vague clue how to fight I didn't think it was fair for me to actually get violent. Afterwards I was thinking about the incident and couldn't work out when i would have felt I needed to actually fight.

    Question 1; At what point is it/would it have been acceptable to get violent? Is it a simple 'when you feel you have to' or is there an acceptable point when it becomes acceptable (note I have not said 'legal' as that is a different question).

    Question 2; why don't people just hit eachother and be done with it? Why this whole bravado thing of not backing down and not realy fighting either just like hugging another bloke and falling over whilst shouting? If anyone wanted to prove anything I'm pretty sure they failed.

    Any insights would be greatly appreciated, cheers folks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    In terms of the second question there is something called the 95% rule.

    That is to say 95% of us don't want to fight and we have a natural instinct to protect ourselves.

    We don't want to fight and by posturing we offer the other person a chance to back down.

    If for example you and I are in a club with our friends and I see something I don't like about you, it is easier for me to approach you and get you to try and back down.

    By the time it starts I don't want to lose face, but I don't want to fight either.

    If you back down I can go back to my group of friends and say, "hah, did you see how scared he was? He soon backed down".
     
  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I love this rule. It saves so much trouble as long as you recognise it.

    OP: it might have been smarter to walk away and go to a different kebab place rather than making them leave. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.
     
  4. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I agree and you can use it in everyday situations.

    You get into a road rage situation. Simply hold your hand us as if to say, "sorry, completely my fault" - even if it isn't.

    He thinks he's made you back down because of his aggression.

    Going back to the nightclub situation, let's say that you could kick my butt every day of the week, but you don't want to fight. You are with your lady and can't be bothered with it all.

    Me and my big mouth approach you. You can either say, "sorry, I wasn't staring at you, I was miles away with my thoughts. Didn't mean anything by it", or you have the second option.

    You can say to me, "look mate, I'm happy to smash your face into the bar and humiliate you in front of your friends, but as I'm a nice guy I'm happy to look as though I'm backing down and shake your hand. This was you can go back to your mates and give it the big 'un".

    Either way you have used the 95% rule to your advantage.

    At all times be ready to fire off. Coopers colour code will help here.
     
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    With question one you are going to get a range of answers, legality can be well defined but as you are asking when is it acceptable it will depend on who you ask. :)

    For some it is fine to just smack the other guy to teach him his place but for others they will de-escalate until they feel in danger. The problem is made worse when you have multiple people in a druken row.

    As for the second question look up social violence, what you had was a peeing contest between two groups and the posturing reflected that. This differs to if someone just wants to do you in and you get blindsided and head stomped. Different driving forces behind it and so, generally, a different lead up to the situation.
     
  6. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    My personal rule is that I won't fight unless I feel it's the only way to avoid physical harm to myself or someone I'm with. In the context you gave, I suppose it would be when the other group started throwing hard blows with intent to injure instead of just wrestling around for dominance.
     
  7. Travess

    Travess The Welsh MAPper Supporter

    This is something we have discussed at Training, maybe not at length, but definitely with a certain amount of frequency, and even amongst well trained (informed) guys, I find pride/ego to be a major hindrance.

    I wonder how much of this is age related - For example, a large portion of the guys I train with are aged 21-25 years, and say that they'd be too embarrassed or would feel too humiliated to openly back down, and allow themselves to be perceived as the weaker party. Where as the older guys, whom circle both sides of the 40 year mark, are focused less on their perceived 'weakness' on more on the outcome of the situation.

    Kind Regards,

    Travess
     
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    When it's necessary. Personally I don't regard acceptable or legal as different things in the context you've described.


    As Simon says, most people don't want to fight - which is not the same as saying they won't fight. Those that really do want to fight will often skip the whole primal posturing routine and just go for it, but they are a minority. As for the causes of the posturing and aggression, well that's a whole subject on its own and may have no relation to either your group identity or group actions prior to the event.

    As for achieving anything I'm fairly certain that both groups have probably come away rewriting the event in their own minds and telling each other that if they'd really wanted to they could have owned the other group.
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Come on now guys...I would have kicked off big time and started swinging.
    You don't just disparage a chap's helicopter and get away with it. Not on my watch.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You seriously think this is a good de-escalation tactic?
     
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    It's posturing at the end of the day, perhaps not de-escalation as some might think but it can work, it can stop a situation escalating.


    Of course it can go the other way but then so can the usual de-escalation approaches.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That kind of action is extremely short-sighted to me.

    You're setting yourself up for more trouble, whether it's later that night or in a year's time.

    I think it shows a huge lack of identifying the motivation for conflict in the first place. It might delay physical conflict, but it is increasing the ill will felt by the other party.

    It just sounds like a great way to suffer an ambush at a time and place, and with favourable numbers of participants, that suits the guy you just emasculated. Maybe a bottle to the back of the head in the toilets that night, maybe a knife in the back on your way home, maybe it's a small town and him and his mates turn up at your house at 5 in the morning when they're all coked off their heads.
     
  13. ned

    ned Valued Member

     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    I've had it work, although I wasn't so dramatic in what I said. It is about identifying motivation and the willingness of the other side to throw down, sometimes it isn't appropriate.

    Far more experienced people have also used it and had it work, Geoff Thompson talks about it in his books. Like anything else it's a tool in the box.
     
  15. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    David, it"s an example, that"s all.

    Maybe read some of Geoff Thompson"s material to see where this came from.

    I've had security officers recall stories telling offenders to walk to a certain section of the room where the cameras don't reach. The disagreement can be dealt with there.

    It is all posturing and each will have their own methods.

    My initial post was just to explain the 95% rule, no more.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Fair enough.

    I think simply saying "get out of my face before I smash it in" would create less animosity.

    Social emasculation breeds a special kind of seething hatred, I feel.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I've read "Watch My Back".

    Door work is very specific in its context. You have to remain in authority, which leads you down roads that are not de-escalating in the true sense.
     
  18. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    In my younger days I ran with a group who would've done something just like this. To them and myself at the time, saying I could beat you but won't to make you look good, would've been a sighn of disrespect, and would be dealt with.

    Roles reversed today I would just be seen as a wuss and apologize and move on, no matter who was at fault. I am having a hard time teaching this to my oldest son.
     
  19. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Wow put up a thread before work and come back to plenty of discussion :) cheers for the thoughts here people.

    I agree with be idea here but on a military base in the middle of no where that realy isn't an option. Making them leave was a mutual thing as I was trying to drag my lads to their beds aswell as we were all in work today at 7am. I hate being the duty 'sensible person' it's a whole load of extra stress.


    Again I totaly agree here. I wasn't putting my size/training in order to seem complacent but merely that as a larger, stronger and more sober person there is a responsibility to act with restraint. The other lads were significantly smaller, very drunk and didn't seem to know how to scrap so I felt that I would struggle to justify any outright aggressive actions. That is different from me thinking I'd free from harm/could go all Bruce lee on them but me trying to make sure I was acting in a legaly defensible manner. A bit of a habbit/mindset leftover from my time on doors.

    The age thing is often a factor from what I have seen. In the situation last night all parties were under the age of 30 so all likely to fit into the category that is more reluctant to back down.

    The 95% rule is interesting, I have heard of it before but never quite understood it. I can see the theory but still don't get the bravado thing, if you dislike some or their actions that much just save the build up and swing or just say your piece and walk away. If your not wanting to fight why keep flogging the dead horse? Maybe it's just me growing out of the young and boisterous mind set here but I can't quite understand why you would start a fight with no intention of fighting. I have no issue with backing down, it realy is not worth the hassle 99% of the time. Unfortunately that's an epiphany I had to reach the long way around.

    Sorry for the wall of text there just had a lot of stuff to reply to :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  20. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Jeffgau, I've sent you an e-mail.
     

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