Acupuncture

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by RickyC123, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I saw how you did that!! Neat mis-direction! :' D

    Now I didn't say there wasn't an effect beyond placebo, only that it didn't appear to be statistically different than when you didn't do anything requiring a skillful approach. Not placebo but not requiring any particular training suggests that there is something going on but it isn't really clear what. Yes there is an effect but in a practical sense (note that I deal with real world patients and not hypotheses) you want to be sure that when you do something that it can be done in the safest way with the most benefit.

    You know what people forget when they read articles, studies etc is that there is a person involved who may not like being stuck with a pin, may not like the side-effects (some people have a sympathetic response and can go into shock) and frankly don't always benefit from the treatment (whether because not long enough, frequent enough etc or maybe it just won't work for that person).

    The biggest problem is predicting who, and with which condition, will have the best response. This is the case for many types of treatment/practitioners. So yeah, acupuncture has a benefit more than placebo for a part of the population. Now if sticking a blunt object against the skin (sham acupuncture of one sort) produces an almost identical response (50% vs 43% improvement) then why would you use the method that had more risk (infection/shock/etc) over the other?? One big question that is the ''sumo wrestler'' in the room is does acupunture work any better than simpler gentler methods? I am tempted to say no for a good size proportion of the population but it's all based on empirical evidence over the last 25 years so it really doesn't count for much. :' S

    That's going to be a new and bigger topic somewhere in the future :' P

    LFD
     
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

  3. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    You know Simon was the one who pointed out why the body benefits from chocolate. Chocolate, in addition to being a candy, has roots in herbal medicine going back thousands of years. It has been subject to quite a lot of critical study, over a long period of time, and the research was often inconclusive. People are still very skeptical about chocolate's health benefits, but recent research supports chocolate milk as one of the most effective drinks for post-exercise and strength replenishment. Counter-intuitive, I know.

    Stimulation affects the body in a multitude of ways.

    Chemical stimulation from chocolate has healing effects. So does chemical stimulation your own glands, based on a variety of causes.

    Emotional stimulation, from chocolate as well as other sources has healing effects.

    It's already well known that physical muscle and tissue stimulation can have healing effects.

    So why is it so hard to believe physical but somewhat precise stimulation of the skin, the human body's largest organ, might have interesting healing effects. It could be...drum roll please...that there exists some better, more SCIENTIFIC way of not only triggering the acupuncture effect, but multiplying it.

    Can those "tiny" healing effects be amplified somehow, say, with electrical current like what is used in TENS units for people with back injuries? Is a "network" circuit approach superior to a simple, two node circuit approach in electro-stim equipment/therapy? These are all interesting questions for science!...

    ....and the world will never know the answer if people like Dr. Steven Novella had their way. That would be a shame. But, millions of people would probably keep getting acupuncture, anyway. The questions would remain unanswered.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i know i'm late to this, but i have some questions.

    which research was inconclusive?

    what health benefits for chocolate are people skeptical about? what are the supposed health benefits?

    and one thought...

    the reason chocolate milk is recommended is not because of the chocolate, actually has nothing to do with chocolate but everything to do with the protein in the milk and the carbs in the sugary chocolate mix that gives the drink the right ratio.
     
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I have cured my bad back by sharpening said chocolate and sticking it into certain meridians around my body.

    It works, you should try it.

    Of course it could be just the placebo effect. :D
     
  6. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    State of the art? It's a meta-study. Dude went and found a group of papers and performed some stats on them.

    I said that using this paper to claim that acupuncture has an honest effect is bad science and a hasty conclusion. When they don't supply a mechanism, have a series of bad controls in their experiment and don't demonstrate strong significance, well, yeah, it could be an issue of experimental design. Note that I said could be. Look at the GERAC paper by Haake, which was included in the Vickers analysis.

    It's a review of the paper that's published online. Should Novella have kept his critiques to himself?

    And yet it even contains studies that do not support its conclusions. There are other metastudies that have come to opposing conclusions.

    I did read the study. I'm asking what you think makes it such a good study. What improvements in particular? Why do you think it was appropriate to include so many studies that did not utilize a sham control? In my view it was just padding the numbers. v:)v

    Except they aren't. The Vickers study was done with 2/3rds of its studies using no sham control whatsoever. The remaining studies utilized different forms of sham control. This is a very good reason to criticize the study.

    That's not really answering any of the questions or defending the piece, it's just placing it beyond criticism.

    Not really, weak significance is often attacked and experimental design is gone over with a fine tooth comb when such things happen. Remember, you can get a false positive.

    Yeah, this isn't how science works. You don't just get a significant p-value and say "We win!" especially if you don't have a good theoretical explanation for why it worked. Again - I direct you to an investigation of type 1 and type 2 errors. Even with a set of perfectly good studies, with a p-value of 0.05, 1/20 of your studies will have results that will appear significant but will be entirely consistent with chance alone.

    The fact that there are issues of control as well only compounds the problem. For example, the GERAC study included both sham controls and regular controls. This was a pool of folks who had chronic pain that did was not able to be addressed. They were told they were enrolling in an acupuncture study, then a certain amount of them were told that they were going to retrieve no treatment. Then they were asked to rate their own sense of pain. This, to me, is full of holes.

    This just isn't true. There are all kinds of reasons you might wind up with significant effects beyond the relationship of healing and acupuncture. It's up to the researcher to design his study so that she or he is able to isolate the causes of the difference, not just celebrate when they find a difference.
     
  7. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Yes....my wife once had me do things to her with chocolate....no placebo there


    Then there will be people who desire to re-name the practice

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Actually this isn't strictly the case. The theororetical underpinings are very different and the approach to treatment is as well. One doctor I studied with was an accomplished acupuncturist but decided to come up with a different approach based on what he knew as a neurologist. On the training course non of the acupuncturists had experienced a similar treatment technique or theory before. It worked very well but (and you'll like this ...) one guy said it was the most painful experience (including having had a severe heart attack) he had ever had.

    http://istop.org/

    I'm sure that there are positive things (potentially) from all camps.

    Just sayin'

    LFD
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    And here I was, thinking I was being skeptical.

    Your opinion as to who is biased, and for why, in this discussion seems rather... biased. The fact you felt the need to use spam-style writing, rather than simply present and discuss the studies, took credence from your argument for me. Mr. Gambit's contributions were far easier to swallow.

    For the record, I am equally skeptical about conventional medicine. For instance, if the OP had been about theraputic ultrasound, I would have been just as skeptical.

    Still, I'm sure nothing will steer you from your state-of-the-art, 100% bulletproof, completely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, BONA FIDE!!! Multi-Million $$$ industry conclusions!!!

    Still, for me it's been great to catch up on acupuncture studies, because it's been a few years since I did. Thanks guys :)
     
  10. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    If it makes you uncomfortable seeing boldface, italics, or worse, color, then you have a very low threshold for discomfort and should cease all strenuous activities, especially martial arts. That's a joke, by the way, don't get sensitive.

    Pointing out the extreme and obvious bias of others is biased? No. I've even been 100% honest about my own (relatively mild) bias. Who of the "extreme" positive or negative crowd has admitted theirs? No, they hide behind political blogs like SBM.

    Oh, so you've determined the chocolate is not a factor? Thanks for giving us "the reason", even though the actual researchers who performed the chocolate milk study haven't determined the exact mechanisms. Clue: they're pretty sure the chocolate is involved, otherwise they'd have done the study on normal milk.

    See your bias yet? You "know" its not the chocolate, even though the findings were specific to chocolate milk and conflict with your conclusions...

    ...and others "knowing" acupuncture doesn't work because some doctors don't believe in it, or because a few studies didn't show any effects, or because all the strongly positive studies come from China, or because the newer ones show a mild one, also conflicting with your foregone conclusions...

    At least one of us, myself, refuses to make a final conclusion until the science is settled. Claiming the science is settled is a lie, just like claiming "it's not the chocolate" is a lie.

    :bow1:
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Um, care to point out my extreme and obvious bias? I seem to have misplaced it...

    From where I'm sitting, it doesn't look like I'm the sensitive one. Your constant haranguing and berating of other's perceived bias reeks of pot-calling-the-kettle-black.

    Don't you think it's weird, that the one person in this discussion who cannot calmly process and discuss the studies, is the only person who is completely free of bias? And everyone that so much as questions that person is "obviously" biased? Does that sound right to you?
     
  12. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Just a general Mod warning to keep this civil people. There are signs that it might head down the sniping route. Thank you for your cooperation with this matter. :)
     
  13. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    the research that i have read specifically addressed the carbohydrates (the sugar) found in the chocolate mix that flavors the milk. not just in one study, but many. the reason chocolate milk is specifically addressed is because without the carbs in the chocolate mix, the 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein is not there. sure, you can actually just drink milk for protein.

    i've seen other research supporting chocolate as promoting well-being in other ways, not specifically as a tool for recovery. is there any research you'd like to point out that addresses whatever point you're trying to make.

    so you're calling me a liar?

    i admit, i'm biased--biased in favor of evidence.

    i find this same discussion happens all the time on this site. yeah, a lot of times when traditional medicine comes up, but also when we're discussing evolution versus creation or something like that. you think it works. me and a lot of others here specifically point out that point is up for debate. you then try obfuscating the issue with...i don't even know what you're getting at at this point.

    my opinion....accupuncture is not better than any other modern treatment. if i'm interested in managing pain, i'll take a pill. sure, there's side effects. ok, i'll manage. if i'm interested in physical therapy, i'll do physical therapy. or if my back is bad, i'll get surgery. we know drugs, surgery and physical therapy is efficacious for a lots of things. accupuncture and meridiens and ki, no better than a placebo. you obviously has some stake in this game. good for you. i still think i'd rather have an informed diagnosis and treatment for a variety of ailments that accupuncture hopes to address.
     
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    here's just one sample....

    http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/341954

    just an abstract i know, but look at what's specifically addressed. it's not the chocolate. if you're (wooden hare) going to claim "it's the chocolate", then back it up with something.
     
  16. Fumiko

    Fumiko New Member

    I think like many most heal method are just people who want money from others. One thing I know first hand worksis Ashiatsu massage but must be skilled person giving or can hurt back very bad.
     
  17. Reikiinchennai

    Reikiinchennai New Member

    I think similar to reiki
     
  18. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Being that I've been doing this week, I'll pull up an old thread.
    I froze my shoulder. How? I don't know. Maybe it was that bad roll I took in class a few weeks ago. My shoulder/upper arm have been hurting off and on for weeks. How I hurt my arm isn't really important. The fact that I could barely move it, and all my pain receptors were firing "!! Pain !!" all the time -- that's important. I'm talking almost zero movement at the shoulder joint, and constant terrible pain.

    After two days of that I went to an acupuncturist. (This was a week ago today.) She stuck a needle in my shin and said, "Try to move your arm." I could move my arm. :eek:

    That night I could move my arm half way and it didn't hurt so much. I had more needles the next afternoon. More movement and less pain. After the 3rd treatment I had nearly full range of movement and only a little pain. I've had five treatments now, and my arm is 98% normal.

    She has her explanations for what was wrong and how she fixed it, but at the end of the day all I know and all I care about is the before and after. Acupuncture fixed my arm.
     
  19. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    I never believed in acupuncture before, but my mum had a stroke last year. She has been left with a degree of paralysis. Her doctor did some acupuncture on her and by the time she left the appointment she had more movement in her leg. She also had less pain in her arm after sleeping. It seems to have worked for her, its not to a great degree but enough to make her quality of life better.
     
  20. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    There's a lot of negativity towards acupuncture and chiros on MAP, my girlfriend uses them both to help with a dodgy shoulder she has. She always gains about 50% mobility after a session and the pain pretty much goes away. Full mobility and no pain in about 3 or 4 sessions.

    Dunno if it's a placebo thing but whatever...it helps her. Either that or sleepless nights, severe pain and not being able to use her arm.
     

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