Struggling with motivation for learning forms

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Sandy, Sep 25, 2016.

  1. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Help!

    How do you stay motivated to learn forms? There seems to be a lot of emphasis on forms, yet their value seems a bit dubious to me. I can't help feeling that forms are today's Morris dancing. This isn't helping my motivation!

    Before anyone advises me to change to a style without forms, I started in full contact, but I'm too old and carrying too many injuries for that now. Hence I switched to TMA.
     
  2. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    My most valuable motivation to learn a form was to get better at the correct movement, for when I was being uke.
    So that might not be the most useful tip, I'm afraid.


    My idea would be to ask for the applications, so you can see more of the reasoning in it.

    To be fair though: I mostly learn kata, because they're a part of it.
    I still hope to get to a point where I actually like them.

    It has gotten better, because they help me a bit to get my head free at times; and getting an idea of the reason behind it also helped a bit.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    which forms?

    If its the older Okinawan / gung fu forms etc there is lots to look at via bunkai applications.

    If its newer TKD etc, there just a means to an end, you can just treat it like a memory challenge in order to learn it.
     
  4. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    We dont have a belt system, so I just treated the forms like one.

    Or like Pokemon. Catch em all and like above. A good memory challenge.
     
  5. Garrywater

    Garrywater Banned Banned

    I went through a phase as a youngster thinking and feeling the same. Even though my Lau Gar Kung Fu ended about 5 years ago after moving away and taking up Jeet Kune Do I still revisit my sets at least every few days.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you learn a new form, you have to examine whether this form can help you to "grow tall", or just help you to "grow fat". If it just helps you to "grow fat", it won't do you any good. Going to elementary school 5 times won't earn you a PhD degree. Repeating "This is a book" 1,000,000 time won't help you to write "To be, or not to be."

    How do you know that a form can help you to "grow tall" and not "grow fat"? Your instructor will need to tell you what "new principles" (not new techniques) that you will learn in this new form.

    For example, in the Baji system, the

    - beginner level form teaches you how to punch while both of your feet are static on the ground. It teaches you the "static punch" principle.
    - advance level form teaches you how to punch while both of your feet are moving (leading foot advance, back foot follow). It teaches you the "dynamic punch" principle.

    In the preying mantis system, the

    - beginner level form teaches you how to "generate speed".
    - advance level form teaches you "body unification" (body push/pull limbs).
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I was just gonna say that I think practice or learning of forms in general are most useful if you can improve some part of your overall physical qualities, which some people will need more than others. Graceful movement is taught the same in boxing. This is the same metric you'd use to determine if you should jog, or lift weights. Will some agility of yours actually improve? Or will you just learn 'material' to analyze? Depending on the forms I've watched or learned it could be both or just one.

    Where do the forms shine most? I think you nailed it with your Morris joke... agility of dancing. That IS a skill, maybe Morris is not a great example of great skill, but if you consider that dancing itself is a skill that ranges greatly in difficulty (from simple Twist to the more pronounced Tango, to extreme Breakdancing), you can see that different dances require (and thus teach) different types of balance, agility, et cetera. Dancing in general is a great example of "Kung fu". Form "pyramids" prove a similar function, I imagine, to the different levels of dancing attainment possible. But, ultimately the dancer dances, not always to the exact pattern they learn, and that's the birth of improvisation, et cetera. Again arts with shadow boxing are good example

    Without wanting to or getting into the debate about combat effectiveness of forms OR dancing, it's hard to argue that dancing skill doesn't make someone a better fighter, in the same ways dancing or Yoga is taught to NFL linebackers. These are ways of staying loose, being flexible, keeping on your toes. And that's all required before actually trying to dance with a partner. Some forms are like partner dances (esp in the Chinese arts) for a reason.

    You'd start with a solo form, move to 2 person forms, and then presumably by the expert phase, you're a regular Kevin Bacon breaking a sweat and swinging through the factory (anybody get my 80's movie joke?). :)

    Seriously though, I liked what YouKnowWho said it made sense to me and I've never studied Baji or Bagua based forms. The same principle is there and I think YKW would agree, even the most 'advanced' forms don't actually go all the way. Every form is in a way, just a learning tool, it's not to represent the greatest attainment. For that, you need to seek the formless. :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  8. huoxingyang

    huoxingyang Valued Member

    That kind of is how I think of forms :p
    I don't know why that would be a bad thing though, as long as you enjoy it. I don't see why you should force yourself to go through it if you really don't like it though. It's not as if you really must learn to fight and this is the only methodology available to you...
     
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I used to train forms (I have learned more than 50 forms) but I don't do it any more. Instead of spending time in form, I like to train "3 moves combo" and repeat 20 times each such as:

    - jab, cross, hook,
    - front kick, roundhouse kick, side lick,
    - single leg, inner hook, outer hook,
    - foot sweep, leading arm jam, neck choke,
    - ...

    If I train 30 combos daily, I have train 30 x 20 x 3 = 1,800 moves. This will be the same as to train a 40 moves form 45 times. I feel I can get more out of my "solo training" this way.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Yeah, I think you'll find TKD forms a little bit more than just a memory challenge :)

    Mitch
     
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Just had a look at some random black belt TKD forms.

    Doesn't look hard to memorise, I reckon almost anyone could do that.

    It appears to me that the overriding qualities are accuracy and proprioception (because, as much as performing solo is slagged off, it takes great amounts of proprioception to be able to start, end and target strikes accurately when there is nothing to hit in front of you. EDIT: same with footwork). Balance and general body control are also needed, it is a display of flexibility but not an exercise to gain flexibility, but I reckon testing memory is way down the list.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yCPfRgKs-M"]1 DAN BLACK BELT FORM. - YouTube[/ame]

    What do you reckon, as someone who knows far more than me, about the benefits of learning TKD forms?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  12. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think you nailed a lot of it in your post David.

    Firstly, there is a simple memory element to learning forms. In the TKD I do we have a different form for each grade, then three for each Dan grade. So I'm supposed to know 18 at this point in my TKD career which vary from 19 to 68 moves. All have varying complexity of combinations, footwork, speed, timing, facing etc, so that's an appreciable chunk of stuff to remember.

    Then you have that whole idea of striving to achieve an impossible perfection; performing a complex sequence perfectly is just not easy, there is always something you feel you could improve upon. The TKD patterns are very detailed in some ways, ways that may not be apparent immediately, so getting those details right is a genuine challenge.

    The techniques should also be performed with speed and power, so there is an element of simple cardio required, and beyond that the requirements of strength, flexibility, balance etc that you mention.

    As to the OP, and without going into the utility of forms, if you are training in any art that uses a number of forms, you have to accept that seeking to perfect your performance of them is part of the requirements of that art.

    Personally I enjoy the challenge, but that's just my take on things :)

    Mitch
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Wow, that is a lot. What are the real world applications of that? Are you super good at pub quizzes? :)
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I guess the first response goes along with a question: Is this class/system/training something you value and want to do? If the answer is "yes", then I guess the response is that you do it because it's part of something larger that you value. If your dislike for them ruins your experience, seek a different art.

    That said, as someone who trained in an art with lots of forms (Taekwondo) for many years, I have to admit that patterns was one of the parts that interested me the least. Here's what I did like about them:

    1. They should match up for each level to the techniques that you are working on. Not only does practicing the 'pattern' help you memorize a chain of techniques, but it gives you a structured exercise to practice them. Often there are great pieces of footwork or other combinations that you work in the form that will come into play later.

    2. As one of my partners used to say, "the forms provides you with a home study course". You can practice at home, using the 'proper' structure that you've learned without (hopefully) ingraining bad habits from unstructured free practice. Even at the higher levels, going through your dozen or so patterns can help you stay 'in practice' while away from the school.

    Good luck to you
     
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    No, but I know the Korean term for philtrum. How useful is that?! :D

    Mitch
     
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Bear in mind I do TKD...but sadly TKD is one art that is really bad at utilising patterns. Partly that's because of the time it was created. It was created at a time when the use of patterns wasn't well understood.
    The earlier Karate kata that inspired it (if you believe the modern interpretations of how they should be used) are structured in a fairly logical way. They start with methods to target and smash the head and neck, move onto clearing limbs, finding further targets, taking balance, controlling posture and over coming resistance, then fill the "what if?" gaps and some follow on ideas if the initial response fails. Or they are stand alone "systems" that record, in some cases, a particular individuals method of fighting where that sort of progression is often in the one kata.
    Taekwondo was developed at a time when that sort of knowledge was lost and so it adopted the simpler and less brutal "school karate" method of having one kata per grade without much application of that pattern at all.
    Taekwondo developed from the three K (kihon (basics), kata (patterns), kumite (sparring) Japanese karate for self development...not the small group, bunkai (applications) and pressure testing for self defence Okinawan karate.
    As such the TKD patterns don't progress in any real combative sense (as far as I can see). They get longer and more complex but not because they are imparting more in depth combative concepts.
    They get more complex because higher grades should be able to do more complex things.

    That said...the DNA of that earlier practical and brutal Karate is still in there. It's jumbled a bit and not quite so cohesive or clear but it is there.
    And IMHO Taekwondoin would we well served revisiting that close range, "grab and smash" side of TKD to complement the longer range kickboxing-ish sporty side.
     
  17. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Thanks everyone - some great comments and thoughts.

    I'm training in a traditional kung fu style, which I like. However, what I'm struggling with is the emphasis is put on forms. Whilst I can intellectualise about theoretical benefits of practising a form, I don't feel any benefit.

    Training time is finite and forms seem like a waste of precious time, because I struggle to see any functional benefit in a self-defence situation.

    Even dancing seems more useful, because at least it's good aerobic exercise. As I've trained previously in full contact, and had to apply it in a very serious self-defence situation, I know the difference between martial arts theory and reality.

    However, I like my instructor and kung fu style. Just not the forms! I guess all TMA emphasise forms, do they? Am I stuck with gritting my teeth through wasted (in my opinion) training time? Or has anyone learned how to love forms?
     
  18. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    I do a traditional Okinawan karate. The main focus there are forms, although the system "only" has 12 of them.
    Personally I really enjoy practising forms. I take them as a way to pass down a style with it's techniques and sets of techniques. When learning the application, we also get to see what was meant by each part of the kata. I like the forms not only for this historical value, but I also see them as a way to practise each techniques, sets of moves that can be used in self-defence, the way to move and turn fast and from and to different postures, to work with the center of body weight while keeping a stable posture, keeping a good posture and also being relaxed and using the muscle tension at right time and synchronize all that with breathing. Of course these things can all be practised in different ways, but the kata look good and are a good insporation of what to practise if I only have a little of time and/or practise by myself. Any I find some of the techniques - applications quite creative. I wouldn't think of them myself and therefore wouldn't practise either. Doing forms also motivates me to try and often keep the right posture etc.
    I still wouldn't like the forms if I didn't find them enjoyable, though, so I understand you and only wrote this as an inspiration of what you possibly can take from the forms. :)

    ...and maybe I'm weird, but some forms are quite a good exercise for me as well. A few in a row would leave me rather tired :)
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You can:

    1. Learn your forms.
    2. Record your forms on video.
    3. Create drills from your forms and only train your drills.
    4. Create your own drills (make it into your own form if you want to).

    The step 4 is important. After you have learned "grammar" from your forms, you will need to write your own books. If you don't go through step 4, you will be just a "copy machine" for the rest of your life.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  20. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    I also find forms incredibly boring. It helps me to learn the application. Once you understand what the form means, you can treat it much like shadow boxing.
     

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