Brazilian jujitsu or Japanese jujitsu (for a police officer)

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Rocketking, Aug 19, 2014.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    DT are woefully inadequate, and are aimed firmly at the "something is better than nothing" end of the scale. They are often ******* love childs of MA's with none of the inherent benefit. Given budget and time restraints what is already less than stellar drops RIGHT off the scale

    Placing someone prone is a key factor in ALL violent arrests, and to that end you had better be able to control, pin and contain. The fact most arrests are with weight of numbers and end in a dogpile is further testament to this fact

    Legality issues are all a matter of articulation - given that an officer can kill someone shoudl circumstances dictate and the choice is appropriate tactically, it is not difficult to articulate a "non sanctioned' use of force when all other options would be lesser if not ineffective choices
     
  2. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Ditto what your friend said. JJJers are neither specialize in striking or grappling so it's only common sense that training in a specialized art is only going to improve them. JJJ is a jack-of-all trade art that makes you master of none. It's a strength that's also its biggest weakness when directly comparing it to other arts. The thing is: does or should self defense prepare you to fight vs other arts? Because that's the framework you're in when asking to show you JJJ winning over BJJ. The "enemy" isn't the BJJer and vice-versa. It's the unknown drunk belligerent, it's the rapist etc. That said, many JJJ school have a training method problem because of the lack of realistic sparring. I was always pushing for more realism when I training/teaching JJJ, while keeping the environment sage safe of course. The problem is that younger belts, just like BJJ, are spazzes and that injuries occur because of that lack of technical control. Now that my teacher, myself and another BB have closed the school, we only meet the 3 of us, full gear on and train more realistically....right before I head to BJJ a few blocks down the street. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  3. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

  4. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Gotta agree here, not a fan of giving up the top ride (even with an armbar) and ending up on my butt too far away from his left hand to do anything about it. But then mount limits your options anyway. If you're in trouble and need an out, straight arm bars make sense to me but if you're on top and trying to get cuffs on, head ride Kimuras and low cost arm locks from knee on belly seem like a safer way to get compliance for cuffing. You're not giving up your top ride and you stay upright and able to quickly create space.
     
  5. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Ju-jitsu is Japanese. You can't have Spanish Champagne. There is nothing, nothing, found in, for the moment, "Brazilian Ju-jitsu," that isn't found somewhere in the Asian art. It's how you personally train. The Gracie's have never invented a never-seen-before technique.
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Thats true, yoshin ryu always used to pull reverse DLR guard and berimbolo spin to back mount, that is if there not pulling quarter guard and working sweeps to win on advantages.

    (Takes off sarcasm hat)
     
  7. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member


    This statement might have been true 2-3 decades ago but as of today, it's flat out wrong.
     
  8. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Nah, Ju-jitsu has always been a Japanese word. That isn't flat out wrong.


    What a funny guy.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No but the asinine jingosimn you have attached to it, coupled with the inaccurate comment about BJJ/JJJ is wrong
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Isn't it Brazilian jiu-jitsu -- based mostly off Judo
    Japanese jujutsu
    :confused:

    I think it is more true today than it was thirty years ago. There was a lot of Vale Tudo influence on BJJ if you go back a bit so I would think BJJ was more different in the 1960s than Judo because of having to deal with striking aspects.

    Today, UFC/MMA, what ever you call it, is making things more alike. IMHO.

    Edit: I have no clue what this thread is really about.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  11. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Glad you could find the silver lining. Keep it up.
     
  12. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    So it's clear you noticed the sarcasm, but you may have missed the point he was making.
    You're saying BJJ has produced nothing new, which doesn't appear in Ju Jutsu. He provided a couple of examples of techniques common in BJJ which he apparently does not believe appear in the Japanese original (at least not prior to the emergence of BJJ.
    Do those techniques appear in Japanese Jujitsu, or do they not count? If they don't count, why not?
     
  13. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Oh also, if you want to avoid the connection to Japanese jujitsu you can just call it "the beej". It even makes it sound like a street term for some drug.

    But it actually has a pretty solid comnection to Japan through Maeda, who taught the Gracies Japanese jujutsu IIRC. Who then named their martial art something different, but related in order to distinguish it from the original while acknowledging the roots and similarities.

    Everyone knows there's a world of difference between Japanese jujutsu and BJJ so I'm not sure what you're driving at anyway. Do you just dislike that it's a sport or something?
     
  14. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    The reason it's called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is because at the time Maeda settled in Brazil, Judo was also if not mostly known as Kano Jiu-Jitsu. Maeda settled in Brazil in 1914. The Japanese government didn't mandate that Kano Jiu-Jitsu be officially called Judo until almost 10 years later.


    Judo has atemi-waza and evasive footwork in uke-waza, too. If there's a dimension old bjj had that judo didn't, it's probably whatever wrestling Maeda picked up from the challenge matches he fought along the way before settling in Brazil. For all intent and purposes, old school bjj looks to me technically so similar to classic judo ne-waza (not today's competition judo's) that absolutely wanting to make a distinction between the two seems a bit like splitting hair IMO.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Maybe I didn't read the title of this thread correctly.

    It is easy to think techniques are different today but all techniques are adaptions for some context. A new technique pops up from time to time or an old one becomes popular again because it works in a particular context.

    In the context of law enforcement, Judo and BJJ are becoming more and more alike. In the context of MMA, Judo and BJJ are becoming more and more alike. One main reason is mostly do to media and the Internet bringing knowledge more efficiently to the masses.

    Fifty years ago, those that fought Vale Tudo were influencing BJJ, which was a lot about self-defense at the time. Judo had gone through similar changes but was not influenced by NHB fighting as far as I know as significantly as BJJ was. They were moving in almost different directions.
     
  16. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    I don't think techniques are different today, at least not the ones that were inherited from judo newaza - those are mostly the same. That's pretty apparent just watching Kosen rule judo matches. It's just that bjj has introduced new ones, especially new guard positions with related sweeps and sub transitions. BJJ has also borrowed (more?) from wrestling - takedowns, some pins and movement drills. Is the core of bjj still mostly judo newaza. Yes, I think so. But saying that there's nothing in bjj you can't find in judo/jjj is vastly incorrect. I hear you on techniques coming and going. Until recently I thought half guard was a recent development but just read that the position's been around for a very long time. I think it's more the offensive use of half guard that's a recent thing. As for what's best between the 2 for law enforcement. I'd say bjj because of the repeated drilling of ground control positions that I think law enforcement use a lot during violent arrests and because all in all, I think today the average bjj player is slightly better at takedowns and throws than the average judoka is at newaza.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2015
  17. puma

    puma Valued Member

    What comment?
     
  18. puma

    puma Valued Member

    A world of difference? Like what? Just being a sport you mean? And no, it's not the sporting aspect that bothers me. That's fine. It's when people go over thetop as if it is this brand new MA, and the best self-defence method ever invented. I stick by what I said earlier. Everything you see in BJJ has been done, somewhere, before, or has been slightly adapted, which I think Rebel Wado mentioned. I'm not saying it's crap, just that there is nothing there that can't be found in other arts, not just Ju-jitsu.
     
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    But how many arts do it better? There are passes and leg locks in JJJ, but they just can't pull them off with the same efficiency. SAMBO guys can leg lock better than BJJ guys, nobody is denying that.
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And you can literally make the same argument for ANY system out there - it is absolutely the dumbest thing I have ever heard and has zero credibility.

    "Shakespeare? That's just the alphabet put in order....."

    "Ferrari? Pah, that's just a Model T Ford..."

    Asinine
     

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