What styles benefit the least from actual strength?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by nintyplayer, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. nintyplayer

    nintyplayer Valued Member

    I know that certain styles like Tai Chi Chuan and Judo depend more on positioning, momentum, and leverage to execute their techniques than brute strength. But the smaller defeating the larger seems to be a selling point to many martial arts including various styles of Kung Fu and Jiu-Jitsu. What martial arts tell you "You're big and strong, and this is how you can take advantage of being bigger than the other guy most effectively"? And how important is actual strength REALLY to those styles that claim to not rely on it as much?
     
  2. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    The concept of Judo isn't "minimum strength" it's "maximum efficiency". That's as useful to a big guy with lots of strength as a shrimpy featherweight. Arguably more so, given that most fights between heavyweights are won by the second guy to gas.
     
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The ones that don't work.

    Given two people of equal technical skill, the 'stronger' fighter will tend to win, where we consider strength to be a function of power and endurance.
     
  4. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    To be fair all arts do, just in differing ways.

    None that I know of personally. No matter what art or sport you take up, good technique forms the fundamental backbone of everything you do. Being strong just augments that.

    I hold the view that good technique is just learning to use what strength you have in a more efficient way. Which doesn't require you to be massively strong. One of my favourite training partners who sadly no longer trains weighed a tiny amount and was almost a full foot shorter than me. The difference in our strength level was pretty shocking even back then (I'm a fair bit stronger now). He could make me bounce when he threw me into the floor consistently just using good technique and timing.

    But if you've ever been a weak guy trying to apply technique to a strong opponent who actively resists, it's horrendous. Strength does give you leverage that shouldn't be ignored.
     
  5. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    This. Technique and speed = power, just not in the sense of the "I can do more push-ups than you" type of strength that people tend to think of.
     
  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    How do strategy, tactics, smarts etc play a part in your view?
     
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    They're all part of your technical skill.

    The only things that can outdo size are luck and significantly greater skill (in proportion to the size difference).
     
  8. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    you can't have jing if you don't have li to refine. strength is also ridiculously easy to develop. it's simply dumb to not take advantage of that (but even dumber to go for pure strength and stop training your technique, mind you :p).
     
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree! If your opponent is stronger, you will need to borrow his force (because your own force may not be strong enough to hurt him). All MA use the "borrow force" concept.

    For example,

    In striking art, when you throw a back fist at your opponent's face. The moment that your opponent blocks it, the moment that you borrow his force, spin your arm, change your back fist into a hook punch, and hit to the other side of his head. The more force that you can generate in your initial back fist, the harder that your opponent will need to block, the more force that you can borrow from him, the faster that your hook punch will be.

    In grappling art, When you pull, if your opponent resists, you can borrow his resistance, change your pull into push. The harder that you can pull, the harder that your opponent's resistance will be, the easier that you can push.

    Of course if you stand on the edge of a cliff, when you opponent charges in with full speed, all you need is to step to the side, and let him to fall off the cliff. This way, you don't need any strength. But this situation in real life just don't happen very often.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
  10. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The stronger guy still has the advantage though. There is no martial art where you'd prefer to be weaker than your opponent.
     
  11. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Possibly strength makes less differences compared to speed in something with bladed weapons?

    As long as you have the strength to push a pointy thing into a squishy thing, the challenge would seem then to be having the technique and speed to get the pointy thing to the target before they get you.

    Edit: I suppose if I'm going to move away from the hand-to-hand domain, then ranged weapons - shooting, archery etc - could have other factors more important than strength in successfully achieving a win.
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Of course that's just common sense without saying. Old Chinese saying said, "Strength can defeat 10 best techniques."

    - To use your own force is like to have money in the bank.
    - To borrow force is like to borrow money from the bank.

    If you are as rich as Bill Gate, you don't need to "borrow".
     
  13. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Strength does come into the pie, no question, and we should develop strength.

    I for 1, would not want to rely on it however - someone will come along some time, who is bigger and stronger.

    For weaponry, strength has its place in sword vs sword, but breakage will occur. If unarmed vs edged weapon, strength alone will not be enough.
     
  14. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    That's a good saying. I might quote it every time someone tells me that strength isn't a factor in martial art x.
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    My post disappeared...will try to retype what I can.

    For years, whilst training in various MA (KF, MT, Vale Tudo) I was mainly just doing cardio and bodyweight S&C exercises. Rarely was I in the weights section of the gym, despite having bodybuilding members of the family.
    I did nothing but drill techniques and spar different rulesets at different places. I was considered "strong" for my slim build at the time....

    Until I started competed in Freestyle Wrestling. I found the difference between being strong in general and competition strong.
    All the technique I have would just get muscled through because the other person also had technique AND big strength.
    I even got bullied around by people in lower weight classes.

    With what time I had in between different MA training and work shift and social life, I started to hit the weights. Changed up my training and got stronger.

    I still get thrown around, I still have to rely on flexibility and speed because I can never catch up with those whose strength level has been up there for years ahead of mine. But it massively benefits me and my self esteem in a broader sense.
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    actual strength

    If you are a famous MA guy (such as 10 times UFC champion), one day someone challenges you "arm wrestling" in public.

    - Will you accept that challenge?
    - What will be your excuse if you lose?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
  17. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    Archery and tactical shooting both require a fair bit of strength and endurance.
     
  18. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Drones and hellfires then you luddite!
     
  19. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    Indeed. In my Japanese sword experience, I'm of the opinion that strength and technique are almost equally important. If you don't have the strength, your block will not keep your opponent from hitting you! ;)
     
  20. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Oh, I'm not doubting that for an instant. But I would expect that it's less of an influence than in hand-to-hand combat. Do they have weight classes in archery or shooting?
     

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