"On Competition," or, "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Hate the Point System"

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by insomniactv, Jul 25, 2006.

  1. insomniactv

    insomniactv New Member

    So this past weekend, I went to my first kung fu tournament. I was all set to compete in the Beginner's Light Contact Sparring event. I came with chest guard, helmet, cup, shin guards, all the usual gear, expecting to leave a broken but satisfied grasshopper.
    I got increasingly concerned by the obviously high level of skill displayed by many of the competitors in the forms section, and had a load of time on my hands to work myself up into a nervous sweat (I arrived at about 9 AM and didn't compete till 2:30). I was thinking, "Man, I'm not at this level; even if these are the Advanced comptetitors, the beginners must still be much better than me. I'm going to die."
    The time rolls around and I go to the prep area to put on my pads. I spot the other Beginner's Light Contact comptetitors, and realize that they all look much more intense than I've ever felt. (Don't get me wrong - I do take kung fu very seriously, but the other guys in this little changing room looked like the evil team from Karate Kid.) I'm playing out my eulogy in my mind and deciding who should say it so I can pass this information on to my Sifu before my opponents use me to reply a Mortal Kombat Fatality sequence.
    I finally get into the ring. I'm thinking what I've learned to think when I fight - protect the head and torso, keep moving, get inside whenever possible - and trying to plan out how I'm going to take this guy down. Suddenly, he kicks me in the shin - and we're not talking broken bone kick, we're talking fourth-grade girl tap - and the ref calls a point. I'm a little stunned, as I did not know shins were valid targets, but I get myself together. My opponent kicks again, this time to the ribs, and I block his kick by pulling my knee up and jamming his leg. The refs call another point, as his hit to my shin counts again. That's right - when I blocked his strike (and pretty effectively, I feel), he scored by hitting my blocking leg. I'm really confused now, as this guy - the guy I'm fighting - is using almost no recognizable technique and is, in fact, just flailing his legs at me in a general playground-like manner. Finally, we begin again to fight, and as I go for a sidekick, he hits me - punches me, unless I'm mistaken - in the shins AGAIN for a third point, ending the match. It was all over in 20 seconds.
    Now, when I spar in school, we learn to absorb a few light shots if it lets us get inside to land some solid strikes. We also routinely block with our legs. This competition left me neither bruised nor even tired (feelings I enjoy after nearly every kung fu class), and it all seemed kind of ridiculous: here they were scoring points in a MARTIAL arts competition for strikes that would be useless in any sort of self-defense setting. My school mates all lost in the same way and all felt the same afterwards; we all expected a more serious competition, and the chance to really field test some of our training. We were not expecting strikes with such little force behind them and aimed at such ridiculous "targets".
    So what do you all think about point sparring? Have you all had any similar experiences? Clearly, fighting to the knock out or submission is not practical, especially not in a beginner's level competition. That being said, a format where nearly any contact (to any part of the body) gets a point AND stops the action seems to invite strategies wholly unrelated to the martial arts or to any self defense system (I offer shin kicking as an example). Does anyone know of any competition that is both beginner-friendly (I've been studying about two years, but not always intensely) but not completely -for lack of a better word - neutered? Have you all had any ridiculous, "How can that COUNT?" tournment experience?
     
  2. TigerDude

    TigerDude Valued Member

    I think you need to read the rules before the event. Then you could've kicked the other guy in the shins & emerged the mighty victor!

    Or at least you could have avoided the whole goofy thing.
     
  3. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Who needs sanctioned competition? If you are sparring with al that protection, you and your mates from class should be able to beat the hell out of each other ALL DAY LONG and have just as much fun at it!
     
  4. insomniactv

    insomniactv New Member

    The fun in the sanctioned competition was (supposed to be) the opportunity to try out the techniques my classmates and I have learned on people brought up under a totally different teaching style or Kung Fu system. I mean, I've sparred with my school mates enough to know what works on them, I'd like to learn now to apply techniques I know to someone whose style I do not know.
     
  5. Lily

    Lily Valued Member

    That sounds like the biggest joke and it does not sound like kung fu.

    What did your instructor have to say about it? I would run far, far away from such 'competitions'.

    You'll should organise your own interschool comp and invite MA'ists from similar styles to visit and train/spar with you'll.
     
  6. Qdmasta

    Qdmasta Valued Member

    I've had my share of controversial fights myself so I can relate. It seemed like I was getting screwed over in tournaments so much that I invested in a camcorder to see if I was really get screwed as much as I thought I was. I was fighting in a tournament in which headshots were awarded 2 points and body shots 1 point. The person with the most points at the end of two minutes or the first person to lead by 3 points wins. In the event of a tie, a sudden death round is fought with no time limit. First person to score, wins.

    The guy I fought at this particular tournament ran out of the ring three times. The rules stated that if you run out of the ring three times, a point would be deducted and a disqualification on the fourth time. The referee never deducted a point. My opponent tried to do a flying kick to my head but he left his chest wide open. I saw it coming and kicked him out of the air causing him to fall on his back. Both of us looked around waiting for someone to yell "point" but it never happened. I let the guy get up and immediately blasted him in the chest with a front kick, putting me up 1-0.

    Later on, we got into a clinch and I threw three unanswered punches to his chest. He got one punch in on me, but that was only after I'd landed mines. 3 corner judges gave the point to me, 1 corner judge was neutral and the ref gave the point to the other guy. I had the majority of the votes so I thought I was up 2-0. Boy was I wrong.

    We set up to fight again and I accidentally hit him with a low blow. The rules stated that you get a warning on the first offense, and a point deduction on the second, but the ref deducted a point from me right off the bat. I wanted to argue but, out of respect and sportmanship, I didn't. Plus, even with the deduction, I thought I would be up 1-0. I knew the 2 minutes were just about up and if I could hold out for a few more seconds, or even get a quick, low-risk score, I would win the match.

    Sure enough, after about ten more seconds the scorekeeper called time and I thought I'd won 1-0. We went to center ring and the ref raises my opponent's hand in victory. I was shocked. Just totally shocked. This cheating was so blatant that I thought I must've seriously missed something and was glad I had my friend tape it. My instructor stormed the ring wondering what the heck just happened. The ref said that the only point that I scored was the front kick, but that got taken away due to the low blow. Then my instructor pointed out that the other guy never scored. The ref answered by saying he scored on a punch during the clinch we had in which I hit him 3 times before he hit me once.

    To summarize, my opponent did not have a point deducted for running out the ring several times, I kicked the guy out of the air in dramatic fashion and received no point, the scorekeeper screwed up and gave him the point for the clinch punches that I clearly was supposed to get (this is the worst because I have on tape 3 of the 5 judges ruling in my favor), and I had a point deducted from me for a low-blow on the first offense, which should have resulted in only a warning.

    In terms of what I think about point sparring, I haven't had that great of an experience with it to be honest. The school that I go to is a relatively small one. The regional tournaments that we attend are often hosted and sponsored by very large schools and the students that attend those schools seem to get the judge's favor. Point sparring seems to give people more of an opportunity be unfair. The judges can just sit back and not call points if they don't favor you. I would rather have continuous sparring where you go all out during a match and whoever fights the best wins. Sure, they can still cheat you at the end by giving the decision to the other person, but it seems like it would be more obvious that they are cheating in that situation and therefore they would be less inclined to do so.
     
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    The OP's experience is a very poor one, I've never heard of such rules, and the post by insomniactv does smack of cheating.

    However, I've judged in both point-and-stop (like the OP but with different scores and only above the belt) and continuous (above the belt again but only stopped for out of the ring, going to ground etc) and I'd like to put in a judges perspective.

    Imagine watching a fight from a corner. Picture this situation:

    The fighter furthest away from me throws a front kick. I see him move, I see the guy with his back to me flinch back, he's been hit! I hear a smack, it must have been a good hit, 2 points!


    Now see it again, from a different angle:

    The guy on the right throws a front kick. I see him move, but I also see the on the left evade backwards, so the kick is well short. Why is the kicker slapping his own chest with his hand? It wasn't a good hit, 0 points.

    If I'm to avoid being misled, I absolutely cannot give the points in situations like the first one. Even if I'm 100% sure they scored, if I didn't actually see it I can't give the point.

    Judging and refing is extremely difficult. And although it doesn't necessarily apply in the cases of these posters, I've talked to a number of people after fights who were convinced they won, yet I've watched the bout and they clearly did not. It's not that they're egomaniacs or can't accept losing, it's just that making a judgement from inside a fight is very difficult.

    I don't mean this specifically for these posters, but in general cut your judges some slack folks, for the most part they're just doing their best and usually giving their time for free.

    Mitch
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2006
  8. insomniactv

    insomniactv New Member

    No TKD, I definitely understand the difficulties of judging, and the judges at my tournament were very consistent and reasonably fair. The problem was the rules: I've never even HEARD of a point system that counted kicks to the shin, especially since the shin is often used to block. Apparently, many of the people in this tournament were ready for that, as most of them went almost exclusively for the feet and legs. I got inside once and gave him a pretty good blow to the chest, but only after absorbing a light blow to the knee that ended with a point for him.
    My teacher thought the whole thing was ridiculous, and that a system of scoring with no eye towards actual self-defense application defied the whole point of a martial arts tournament.
     
  9. funnytiger

    funnytiger Earthbender...

    well... judging from you location I would say you went to the Kuoshu tournament in Hunt Valley, MD right? I wasn't aware that they HAD a point system since most kung fu tournaments (or at least the ones I've been to) have point systems.

    I think its a bit harsh to say that the "whole tournament" was a bust because your school felt cheated or didn't get the wins that you probably deserved. Sparring is just one part of a kung fu tournament.

    (EDIT: I just checked out their rules... LAME ASS point sparring!!!! You have every right to be angry with the sparring division rules. So lame...)

    I'm sorry your experience was bad, but hopefully the Wong Tournament will be a better experience.

    Next years 5 Tigers is in June, and I know for a fact that there is NO point system. :p

    BTW, my school did the opening lion dance routine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2006
  10. HwaRang

    HwaRang Just don't call me flower

    Ok it was a bad point sparring competition. You have 3 options now:

    1) Either accept it was a godawful competition you'd not want to go into again and forget about it. Since it was a consistant trend in your school who train reasonable rules this option seems to be most valid.

    2) Train up your "weak but fast" shin kicks so that next time you go you will do better (but in the real world get yourself annihilated).

    3) Go again and just work on beating your opponent to a pulp everytime he goes for a shin kick. (Don't wear shin guards to it and you might get away with it, unless they are required for the comp).
     
  11. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    In judo, I get a shido every time I inhale. There's some sort of conspiracy behind it...
     
  12. insomniactv

    insomniactv New Member

    It was the Hunt Valley tournament in Baltimore. And the whole thing wasn't a bust, I just take issue with the point sparring rules...but it seems we agree on that.
    And HwaRang, I think I'm going with option 1. My school isn't going to train any differently - seeing as (I think) it was our more practical training that was the issue - but we're probably going to restrict future competition to forms unless we find a point sparring tournament with rules more in keeping with the real spirit of kung fu training.
    And does your signature indicate that you do TKD, Aikido, Wutan and Fencing? Going for the Bruce Lee training regimen?
     
  13. HwaRang

    HwaRang Just don't call me flower

    TKD is my primary, and Wutan and Fencing are 2 i picked up at uni (based on what I had time to do really). Aikido I done for a year because my mates done it, I picked a good bit up from it but it just wasn't for me.

    So do you have a lack of KF or open torneys in your area, cause I can't see one with that ruleset being too popular for long.
     
  14. funnytiger

    funnytiger Earthbender...

    The Kushou in Hunt Valley is the only KF tournament that I know of in the area that has a point-system. Wongs doesn't and neither does 5 Tigers and both tournaments have been around (well 5 Tigers just did its 3rd) and are doing well. Both tournaments do continuous sparring.

    - ft
     
  15. GoBigDaddy

    GoBigDaddy New Member

    not only does point sparring suck anyway, i have never heard of points on shin contact, do full contact it is so much more fun
     
  16. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Thats why I stopped competing a couple of years ago. There was so much ballet dancing that 'scored' points and not enough clean hits. My last fight in competition I lost because I got hit on the arm. That was it for me.

    When I'm back in the states and judge, some of the competitors don't like to see me reffing because I dont' call a point unless its a POINT. If I wanted to see bobbing dancers I would have gone to the theater.
     
  17. Black Belt

    Black Belt New Member

    I agree with what has been said in previous comments. Having competed and having to be a ref it is hard in point sparring competitions. Like others have mentioned i have not heard of the shin kick score, then again (im not 100% sure) but in Tae Kwon Do, dont they score if hit the arm?
    TKDMitch comment about the angle of the ref is very true, which why in karate tournaments they have changed form 2 refs on mat to 4 with flags in each corner and the main ref in middle, then you can see from all angles and the point is awarded on the majority verdict.
    Point sparring can be very fast so refs have to be fully aware, hence reason there can be controversy over certain points.
    Thats why i like Kyokushin knockdown fighting, you only score with head kicks and if you drop your opponent with a body shot. No question then if you have scored or not, its obvious.
     

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