Well, since this test has been discussed in the Quality Control in the Bujinkan and Importance of Ranking threads, I do feel it is appropriate to start a new thread about it. As the godan is the rank in the Bujinkan required to be teacher of the art, and as this has always been the rank that separtes the beginners from more intermediate practicioners, it is important to those in the Bujinkan. As Hatsumi sensei's original students passed the test(including Manaka and Tanemura sensei), it clearly means something to other practicioners of Takamatsuden as well. As the godan test goes beyond just issues about quality control and rank, it does deserve it's own thread. Some believe that the test requires some superhuman or psychic skill. Others don't want to believe in things that aren't scientifically provable. Still others say that it is just being sensitive to air movement, sound, or other normal cues that can allow one to pass the test. Clearly, if the test is fake, then it should be shown to be so. However, if it is a real test of the killer intention of the test giver, that should also be made explicit. If the sakki test is a fake, then the most important rank in the Bujinkan doesn't really mean anything and is just another example of the lack of quality control that some feel the organization breeds. If it is real, then a lot of people who claim the Bujinkan is useless will have to rethink their assumptions. To keep this thread on track, please keep your opinions succinct and state whether you have actually taken the test, passed it, or not. So that the thread doesn't become the haven of virgins discussing sex, those who haven't taken or passed the test please refrain from trying to take over the thread. Onegaishimasu EDIT: If you have never taken the test but have some real life experience with avoiding imminent danger through some form of sakki, please feel free to share that in your posts. As the sakki test is related to the Takamatsuden however, it would be helpful if you could tie that experience in with the OP.
Okay, so let me start the ball rolling. Here is my take on the godan test. Having passed the test(with a cut all the way to the floor as it should be), I can attest that it is real, can be replicated(so probably scientists could find a way to verify this ability if they tried), and is not a circus trick or something that can be passed by relying on sound, subtle air movement, or stomps on the ground. When you think about the speed the shinai swings down, it is highly unlikely that the sound would register and one would be able to react to that stimulus in time to move out of the way. Reacting to a sound(like Hatsumi sensei's voice), or foot movement(feet don't need to move or push on the ground anyway just to strike downwards) should result in the testee having to redo it as others are watching to make sure they pass for real. I cannot accurately describe the feeling I felt when I moved, but there was a sense of the necessity of movement that was not really verbalised in my mind(unlike, "hey look at her, she's hot," or "ouch, that hurts"). I just felt/knew I needed to move and was doing so without thinking about it. However, that does not make it magical or unscientific. Like many of the higher aspects of martial arts, it is just hard to put into words. The fact that your eyes are closed(I imagine it could be done blindfolded), and your other 4 senses wouldn't give you enough time to react if you were relying on their normal processing speeds, the question does become how is the test successful accomplished? Many believe in a 6th sense, and that comes closest to how this mechanism probably works. You are on heightened alert as you know it is coming(although when Hatsumi sensei was tested by Takamatsu sensei with a real sword, he had no idea of what was about to take place and he was tested with a real katana), yet need to be relaxed and calm in order to move as quickly as possible at the right instant. The most important factors in developing the ability to feel this intention are calmness, mushin or emptying the mind, and getting rid of your fear. Of course, the ability to roll diagonally back when you feel the need to do so without leaving any body parts behind is the most important physical aspect that needs to be developed. I worked a lot on my rolling from yodan on because it was not easy to roll as a unit from seiza without leaving part of my body behind. Now, let's get into why it is important. Besides granting the rank of godan and thus the ability to open your own school, the most important aspect of this test is that it represents the entering into a new phase in your study. This is perhaps the least discussed and understood aspect of the test. Up to godan, the student should be learning the kiso, kihon, taijutsu, and weapons aspects of the different schools, but they are practiced at a beginner level and eventually an intermediate one. Once the godan test has been passed however, the student now enters into an area of study that depends on different sensitivities, principles, and abilities to make the same techniques work. The closest parallel I can think of is tai-chi and what it requires to really use it as a fighting art. Many of the principles and methods of training are similar(at least theoretically), as are the results. It is in this stage where the "ninjutsu" really begins. The ability to become invisible(not in a puff of smoke but through angling, positioning, how you move, and getting rid of will), the ability to confuse your opponent, and the ability to stick to them, use effortless power, and many other things start here. Needless to say, without the proper foundation up to godan, these new aspects can not be learned or manifested. So the passing of the godan test is a watershed in the practicioners study, and in many ways is the hardest test to pass. Heretofore skills need to be reconsidered, recalibrated, and in some ways, unlearned in order to progress(which is often slow, frustrating, and difficult). Returning to the earlier days when it was just move off line, hit the guy, and take him down without worrying about all the more subtle details is a constant desire. However, the ability to really use the skills of ninjutsu for real, apply jointlocks and throws with ease(while making them very difficult to counter), and the speed of application are all multiplied. This is the major difference between people like Hatsumi sensei and the shihan, contrasted to others who know the techniques but are lacking the same background. As mentioned in another thread, there are other Japanese arts that train this ability in different ways. One such school was shown in the Mind Body and Kick-Ass Moves episode two. It featured the reporter Chris Crudelli, a martial artist, training with Shintaido sensei Aoki Hiroyuki in an attempt to develop this skill. The video used to be online but I am having difficulties finding a url now. Here is a description from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind,_Body_&_Kick_Ass_Moves
Yeah you went Kiai Master... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I[/ame]
I mistakenly posted a video of the Hida system master Sasaki. He is not the same person as this Kiai master, sorry. Let's try to stay on topic and avoid trolling. If you want to discuss Kiai masters, feel free to start your own thread. Please don't pollute this one.
My apologies, all those Kiai masters look the same to me. I thought you wanted to discuss them that's why you posted one instead of a video of the sakki test?
Like I posted, I can't find the video of him training with Aoki sensei. It showed him doing waterfall absolutions and trying to feel the sakki of a knife wielding attacker in another room through a shoji screen, if memory serves correctly. Once again, attempts at intelligent discussion in the ninjutsu forum bite the dust.:bang:
I genuinely thought that you believed that this Kiai nonsense was proof of Sakki which is why I replied. It wasn't a completely illogical conclusion based on the wording of your post prior to the video which is very Pro 'unexplained magical stuff' VS Science... If that's not your point then please go ahead...I'm listening.
I remember that! It looked like those whacky chi masters or the yellow bamboo folks. They had people running round in circles being controlled or whatever.
Please read the OP, my point should be pretty clear. This thread is to discuss the sakki test. Ki is difficult to explain in English, if you have ever felt it though you will know it exists(just like air). Try accupuncture or have a kikou(chi gong) master put their ki into your body. The ability to sense danger should be seriously examined, as there is an obvious military/LE usage for it. Aoki sensei was a bad **** Karate guy back in the day. Shintaido however, is a bit wacky. Reminds me of Tohei aikido. People have different paths so I won't say anything else about that. However, ki is real and can be felt. It is not one of those things that if you don't believe in it, it won't hurt you. There are however, a lot of frauds around(like the phony ki master in the video mattt posted) who make up things about ki and promote their own form of brainwashing to take advantage of others. Whether this is suggestion/hypnotism, or whatever I am not sure. It can be found in martial arts circles in pretty much any country.
So you also believe that Ki exists? Have you ever read or posted in the Chi discussion thread here in MAP? This theme has been thoroughly discussed there and the side of non-believers was seriously many times more convincing.. That's logical if you think that they have science on their side, but many of them had also many years of training in inner eastern arts.. Anyway, to make a long story short, I was completely convinced by their arguements, although I would really like to hear your take on this subject and see you debating with them..
No, I know it does. I have felt it, just as I have breathed air(pretty much since birth with ocassional spurts of witholding). So were people wrong to believe in air before it was scientifically proven? Some aspects of ki have been verified by heat sensitive monitoring equipment, like the heat generation in the palm of masters that changed when they gave off ki. To answer your question though, no, I have never seen that forum. There are many I have never journeyed to so it might be interesting. Up to a certain point in your training, the existence of ki is more or less irrelevent. Many people and many arts never reach the level where it becomes important. Even without purposeflly training one's internal energy or believing in it, powerful fighters are created all over the world. However, there is a vast difference in the abilities of people who have mastered their ki and those who haven't. It mostly has to do with the damage they can do to you. If you have never felt this, you are lucky. Scary stuff.
RP, I think we're on the same page here but I'm going to throw this out there anyway. People, and probably animals, have a sense of their own death. People who've faced death, held someone's hand when they passed, witnessed someone killed, been in the vicinity where murders take place, etc., know what the "Grim Reaper" feels like. No Bujinkan training or sakki test required. I'm not going to go do the scientific research and find where it's been discussed by modern authors, because people who know what I'm talking about probably look at the Bujinkan's sakki test as a watered down bit of irony. Death has a feeling to it and humans and animals appear to be designed to pick up on it if their senses haven't been dulled by a life of relative safety. I think you're doing people a disservice by excluding MAP members who aren't in the Bujinkan but who've developed the correct sense by exposure to, and survival of, real danger. There are plenty of police and active/former military MAP members who could probably offer some great insight if they felt they wouldn't get flamed to death for doing so.
Au contraire mon frere, I think it would be silly to ignore such people's experiences, as they are examples of sakki applied in real life. My request in the OP was so that people who have not attempted the test do not start polluting the thread with their assumptions about what it is or isn't. People with real life experience in which their intuition/premonition/instinct/sakki/whatever actually helped them avoid being hurt are more than welcome to share their experience as they see fit in regards the topic.
Well, one of the reason that I am sceptical about the existence of ki is that arts like boxing and muay thai have nothing to do with it, but their quality is being proven countless of times and in competitions against many other eastern martial arts (karate and kung fu systems) too.. From what you said I understood that ki can even increase the damage your opponent can do to you if he has mastered it. I personally can't imagine anything scarier than the damage a punch coming from Tyson or kick coming from a Thai fighter My point is that even speaking about powerful blows, again, the MAs with the biggest reputation are the ones who have nothing to do with ki. I always thought that Ki has more to do with someone's aura.. That an exceptional fighter would have a strong and confident aura, therefore a strong presence and that, this is what Ki is all about in reality.. I haven't formed yet some solid opinion on this matter though, because as you said in your first post in this matter and in MAs in general I feel like a virgin talking about sex So I am all ears!!
Sorry, then. A misunderstanding. I thought you were limiting discussion to Bujinkan members only. :hat:
Your questions are interesting, but we are talking about a different manifestation of ki when we talk about the sakki test. One problem with discussing ki is defining it. Many phenomenon that don't necessarily have anything to do with ki are attributed to its mastery by frauds, fakes, and true belivers. For this test, it is about sensing your opponent's intention to do you bodily harm. You are sitting down in seiza with your eyes closed and the attack is coming from behind. You have no idea when, just that it is coming. One of the best passes I saw was in an old documentary on Japanese martial arts from the 70s(I believe). I will post it here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h34TOw02quM"]Old Footage of Soke Hatsumi Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu Ninjutsu - YouTube[/ame] Funny thing is though(not shown in this video), that after a brilliant example of the pass, when the reporter does the strike, the testee just sits there. I have the documentary so I will have to look again and see if it was the same person. If so, it would bring up some interesting questions. Again, just for the record, I don't see anything mythical, magical, or religious about ki. I don't think it will give you supernatural abilities, but I do know that some people that can control their ki can discharge it into other people's bodies(through physical touch in my experience) to have either healing or damaging effect on the other person. There is some component of ki that can change heat, energy flow(duh), and potentially the heaviness of the body. Without a doubt, the Chinese culture has done the most in-depth research into ki and any true investigation of it would necessarily require one to be familiar with how it is understood from that perspective.
Though some might think I am an elitist blue bull, I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. The only real way to get to the bottom of the sakki test would be to compare it to other examples of the same thing outside of the dojo. I am all for scientific research into sakki, just wonder how it would be tested. Who would be the control, what would be the test(I don't know how ethical bopping people on the head with shinai would be), and how the parameters would be decided? It would be interesting to investigate though, just like the contagiousness of yawning.
Simple. Take a bunch of people who survive life-threatening situations on a regular basis. Rent a house in a high-crime area that's likely to be shot at or invaded. Incorporate cameras in their daily lives as they live within the house and as they go about daily tasks in the area such as securing basic survival necessities. You'd likely see singular and group representations of this sense going off on a regular basis.
I'll state again (although i would love Ki to actually exist) that in the face of scientific investigation the claims of Ki/Chi or sakki just fall down, and any claims are simply anecdotal evidence only. Sure people can claim this scientific piece of data, but please if we are going to do so in this thread can we please show a source foor the study/data. Incidently even if a piece of science does suggest that chi/Ki etc is real and doees have some evidence to back it up, that scientific study has to go through a peer process system before its accepted in the wider scientific community.
