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  #46  
Old 25-Mar-2013, 12:13 AM
Tom O'Brien Tom O'Brien is offline
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I like kesa gatame & side control just to control his body for a short time while looking to submit or mount. Thanks for this post.
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  #47  
Old 27-Mar-2013, 05:05 PM
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For me, the Four Basic ground positions are:

1) Guard (Full, Half, Quarter)

2) Cross-X (Side Control, Lateral Press)

3) Mount (Front & Back)

4) Top Down (North-South, 'Pole Position')

So my Basic Four differs from the OP's in one regard: the 'Scarf Hold' position is not counted, rather the Top Down/North-South pole position is one of the Four counted instead.
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  #48  
Old 27-Mar-2013, 05:44 PM
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I think half guard should be one of the basic four, he amount of stuff that happens in that position is crazy!
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  #49  
Old 27-Mar-2013, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icefield View Post
and how many of those subs get pulled off in competition on a regular basis

the theory falls down slightly because in the UK as you know a lot of judo guys move into MMA and sub grappling, and none of them work scarf that much (except as a pin from a throw and a transition into something better) even though they had plenty of experience in it
Actualy Ronda pulled off one or two recently...
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  #50  
Old 27-Mar-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal View Post
For me, the Four Basic ground positions are:

1) Guard (Full, Half, Quarter)

2) Cross-X (Side Control, Lateral Press)

3) Mount (Front & Back)

4) Top Down (North-South, 'Pole Position')

So my Basic Four differs from the OP's in one regard: the 'Scarf Hold' position is not counted, rather the Top Down/North-South pole position is one of the Four counted instead.

How much grappling have ou done man?
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  #51  
Old 27-Mar-2013, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadderz View Post
How much grappling have you done man?
I trained Wado-Ryu jujutsu (karate) and judo in my teens, and since I was 17 I've trained with a variety of different partners in grappling.

So, the answer is a lot.

I love grappling, wrestling and close-in fighting, but still, my self-taught style has evolved over time. In actual combat I generally prefer striking even though one must know how to grapple for the purposes of countering entanglements.
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  #52  
Old 28-Mar-2013, 09:32 AM
mattt mattt is offline
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I think this would be easier if people tried to make it basic 3 positions, since the 4th seems to be fluffy when you put so much scope into Guard and under that umbrella can include full, half, quarter, open, butterfly, de la hiva, 50/50 and a billion other things saying Kesa or NS is an equal position to that umbrella term is nonsensical.
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  #53  
Old 28-Mar-2013, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
Actualy Ronda pulled off one or two recently...
what subs, you mean when she switched from scarf to mount to get the sub because all she was doing in scarf was holding the girl down and giving her a change to get her back, like she did in the first round....
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  #54  
Old 28-Mar-2013, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattt View Post
I think this would be easier if people tried to make it basic 3 positions, since the 4th seems to be fluffy when you put so much scope into Guard and under that umbrella can include full, half, quarter, open, butterfly, de la hiva, 50/50 and a billion other things saying Kesa or NS is an equal position to that umbrella term is nonsensical.
I appreciate a good simplification, Matt, same as every other guy, but I don't agree with you here, friend.

There ARE Four Basic positions in ground-fighting, and the reason for this is that for your ground game to be complete, you must be able to 'round' the opponent 360 Degrees.

That means from the Front (90 degrees), Back (90 degrees), and both sides (90 degrees left, 90 degrees right). Four times 90 equals 360 - encircling the opponent and covering all angles.

The idea there is to be able to control, submit or destroy your opponent on the ground from all angles.

So, you have Guard & Mount (Front), Cross-X (Sides, Left & Right), Top Down and Back Mount (Behind-Back of the opponent) positions: starting and covering all of these, you have your 360 degree control of the opponent.
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  #55  
Old 28-Mar-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by The Immortal View Post
I appreciate a good simplification, Matt, same as every other guy, but I don't agree with you here, friend.

There ARE Four Basic positions in ground-fighting, and the reason for this is that for your ground game to be complete, you must be able to 'round' the opponent 360 Degrees.

That means from the Front (90 degrees), Back (90 degrees), and both sides (90 degrees left, 90 degrees right). Four times 90 equals 360 - encircling the opponent and covering all angles.

The idea there is to be able to control, submit or destroy your opponent on the ground from all angles.

So, you have Guard & Mount (Front), Cross-X (Sides, Left & Right), Top Down and Back Mount (Behind-Back of the opponent) positions: starting and covering all of these, you have your 360 degree control of the opponent.
There are historically 4 and they are based on hierarchy and importance of position in terms of use, not 360 degrees covering of the body, hence mount and back mount were always included and not north/south
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  #56  
Old 28-Mar-2013, 02:50 PM
mattt mattt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal View Post
I appreciate a good simplification, Matt, same as every other guy, but I don't agree with you here, friend.

There ARE Four Basic positions in ground-fighting, and the reason for this is that for your ground game to be complete, you must be able to 'round' the opponent 360 Degrees.

That means from the Front (90 degrees), Back (90 degrees), and both sides (90 degrees left, 90 degrees right). Four times 90 equals 360 - encircling the opponent and covering all angles.

The idea there is to be able to control, submit or destroy your opponent on the ground from all angles.

So, you have Guard & Mount (Front), Cross-X (Sides, Left & Right), Top Down and Back Mount (Behind-Back of the opponent) positions: starting and covering all of these, you have your 360 degree control of the opponent.
I'm not simplifying I'm refining. The north south position doesn't contain anything near the complexity of the myriad of guard positions. Making them equal points on the compass for 360' control isn't realistic.
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  #57  
Old 28-Mar-2013, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattt View Post
I'm not simplifying I'm refining. The north south position doesn't contain anything near the complexity of the myriad of guard positions. Making them equal points on the compass for 360' control isn't realistic.
Fair enough, you know your own best.

There are a lot of efficient techniques executable from the pole position, though.

As for the 360, we'll agree to disagree on whether it is 'realistic' or not.
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  #58  
Old 30-Apr-2013, 09:40 AM
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python44 python44 is offline
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Get rid of the Kesa Gatame....your butt is too high on your mount and cross body positions. Also on the cross body position you only have your knees close to your opponents body only when attacking. Your arms are also in the wrong place as well. If not attacking the keep your legs straight, on the balls of your feet, knees off the ground and legs wide. Just curious do you train in BJJ?
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  #59  
Old 30-Apr-2013, 12:27 PM
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Certainly do NOT get rid of Kesa - its a staple move in the arsenal of a decent CACC player and Judoka.

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  #60  
Old 30-Apr-2013, 04:55 PM
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Certainly do NOT get rid of Kesa - its a staple move in the arsenal of a decent CACC player and Judoka.

Kimura approved!
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Kesa Gatame is a pinning technique and if not done correctly can get your back taken or be reversed. You have to use the modified method. Instead of placing your arm around his head you place it underneath his arm which prevents him from taking your back or escaping.
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