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  #16  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 12:24 PM
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by the way, the definition of family style is that it has been passed down in your family and only in your family.
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  #17  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 01:19 PM
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ANGELSGYMSINGH ANGELSGYMSINGH is offline
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Awesome Comments! Keep them coming !!!

Thanks for the responses guys. Some of the comments are a matter of opinion and as such stand on the merit of that person's experience. Much respect to them for sharing. The comments regarding the sharing of a lineage family style or system with the public is one that I can respond to with some confidence. Transmissions of Lineage Family Systems like Chen, Yang and Wu taiji quan have been available to the Western public for for over 100 years in a limited fashion and for decades after the explosion of Japanse Jiu Jitsu at the turn of the 20th century. In fact Professor Lewis's The Weaponless Defense and the Brittish style of Bartjitsu was a reaction to that martial transmission from Asia. The Wu style is the best Chinese example of this as Shanghi was a great sea port and Wu Kong Yi and the Ying Jow Pai association through Grand master Sheum's Box version of the Wu Style pared with the Eagle Claw greatly impacted Noth America. (Thanks Johnno)

It is very possible and often likely that more profound methods of those transmissions are not fully disclosed to the West and some of the best medical and martial strategies and techniques are kept for an inner circle of family members ad initients. The Singh Family style is no different in that sense as the stuff I share ain't the cream in the twinkie... lol ... when I ran Angel's Gym I taught Hundreds of clients and competitors. Only a few were my students and fewer still are the ones that I teach some of the wisdoms I have been blessed to discover or have shared with me by great and learnered Warrior Scholars.

The videos and information shared is kinda vast, involved and even daunting depending on experience and exposure. However to some it is not only recognizable but very familiar information that is not considered a secret at all. The information in this thread is shared as an example of how I have developed my family style and why I had to... mostly because I was not blessed or in some cases interested in becoming an inner circle member of another's family style. In this decision I have been and am very fortunate to be able to spend 12 - 16 hours a day doing nothing but researching and training in my martial art. I am even more blessed to have an audience outside of the blogging community, which is truely the best vetters of my material... lol... Keeps me honest and identifys my audience. Having said this my reason for sharing what I know in any forum was very simple: I was asked.

I integrate East and West, fought well and trained others very well and was asked to design forms and denote the basics of my system by my students. What I have shared at the time in forums, books and in articles in cases prior to this posting was defineitelymeant to garner criticism and learn from it to improve presentation and give it to those who needed it in a more formal publication. It is in that sense I thank you all for reading an responding.

There are people who have read this theme in this forum and in other forums that have found the information useful in its present format. I was never looking for alot of readers even though that is exactly what has happened. That makes me happy and greatful.

What I have learned from the experience of creating my own family system and style and teaching family member and worthy students is priceless. My family is closer, extended family has sought me out to learn and peole on both many sides of the family who have never met are feeling a bond. Sharing the information has helped me link my system with others within the WMAC network of schools and helped them incorporate intertnal methods into their external system. The popularity of my videos was just recently discovered by me at a Martial Convention in Detroit. A highlight for me that day was discussing the Training Aspects of Movie Fighting with Master Cynthia Rothrock of Tiger Claws and Cary Togawa of Mortal Combat and having people ask me for an autograph... lol... Certainly made my conversations with them more eventlful and I learned alot about the mental state of healing from Grandmaster Togawa. You can see the pics of it on my facebook and of course I am very happy about that. If I had known I would have brought more books... lol...

What Master Chen Xin, author of Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taiji Quan was of great value in this rewarding aspect of my martial journey and can be of great value to those willing to and able to listen to their own inner teacher. He is quoted above but his wisdom is balanced by what Master Wang, author of the treatise Tai Chi Chuan said about being led astray. By the way I remember Fire Quan writing pages of treatise alot longer than mine with alot less links and references to check the veracity of his positions. He was recorded as well recieved by this forum. Although that is not my inspiration for sharing what my research for Creating a Western Family Lineage System and having such creations spread in a codifying manner, I would not mind favorable opinion. However, given the provacative nature of my positionI do not expect it. I am glad that this thread is starting to attract responses as well as attention. Over 2000 readers before this splash of responses feels good and I thank you all for taking your time to write whether you are pro or con ....

Please keep it coming...... G
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Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 11-Apr-2012 at 04:20 PM. Reason: wording, fact correction
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  #18  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGELSGYMSINGH View Post
Transmissions of Lineage Family Systems like Chen, Yang and Wu taiji quan have been available to the Western public for centuries.
With respect, I think you are mistaken on this point.

The Yang and Wu styles were created in the early years of the Chinese Republic (i.e. in the years following the revolution of 1911.) They were based on the Chen family system which was older - although whether it is 'centuries' old is debateable. It certainly wasn't availbale to the 'Western public', as it was only taught outside the Chen family from the late nineteenth century onwards.
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  #19  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 04:10 PM
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ANGELSGYMSINGH ANGELSGYMSINGH is offline
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Thanks for the comment Johnno. You are correct.... Decades would be a better time reference.... Thanks for pointing that out.. I will correct it....
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  #20  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 04:49 PM
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For the Stootmeister

Also to shootdog.... about the Looking like MMA thing Renzo Gracie who uses Pranayama and Hatha Yoga regimens to move like a Cat and have the fabled strength of a Panther, Machita Lyota who practices a Family lineage Karate that makes him impossible to hit or beat by the average MMA Professional (Ask Sugar) and Anderson Silva who practices Muay Thai Silat jurus mixed with a "Cutting" style Pugilism makes most Professional MMA fighters look like amateurs in footwork and power, It does not look like MMA.

I have studied and wrote about these cats for awhile. Their secret to making some of their fights seem coreographed and their knockouts surreal is that that practice form and evolve traditional form to reinforce their best techniques. Adept on the floor these fighters couple form with the most intense pugilistic conditioning they can muster and endure. My family style heeds that lesson and what you see are some of those developmental efforts. Of cours the good stuff is for the "Peeps"... as I am sure is yours....

I have also found out that there are profound differences in competitive training and combative training. I am a retired Army Ranger who has been taught the differences and have had to apply those lessons. Modern Pankration or MMA has a flip side which is called Pammachon or Close Quarters Combat. I believe that the fighters that I have mentioned know that difference and train first to survive a real fight.... then they codify the methods they trust and then make them work in the cage. I believe that that is why some of these Master's highlighted knockouts and submissions were so brutally effective against many of their opponents who were not so inclined or exposed to such truths or training methods.

BYW Muay Thai is a Silat born from the same spiritual warrior concept that Chinese Chuan Fa better known as Gong Fu and commonly spoken of as Kung Fu. They are all connected by the evolved spiritual discipline begun as Mahayana Buddhism and now known as Chan Buddhism in the Shaolin Order. So in a way a type of Kung Fu is practiced in the MMA as Muay Thai is a competitive version of Muay Boran which is the Close Quarters Combat version which unlike a style is a complete system with religious practices that use martial art discipline to teach one to reach a fuller spiritual, mantal and physical potential. Of course this may be outside of the normal intellectual spectrum of MMA enthusiasts but it should not be for people interested in these modes of self defense. The roots of the spiritual warrior concept is strong in the fighters mentioned and is of Greco-roman, Presian and Asian evolutionary developments that have been transmitted to the West. My style and system is from that spirit and lineage. Please read the "Boddisittva Warriors" (I know Spelling.. lol) and The Martial Arts of Ancient Greece by Kostas for more on the Greek-Persian-Buddhist-Asian connection stuff...

It may not look like MMA to many but it has, is and will be to the select few who can make the connection. Soon the healing/harming concept will creep into the more seasoned of champions who wish to continue honing skill well into middle age and beyond as I am doing. This is at the root of my inspiration to share some of what I know.

Peace bro... G


Our family system can not be labled as an Asian System of Martial Arts even though much of the research comes from those cultural sources. My way also includes heavy references from Western Treatise and is why I call my codified fight dances Pyrrics....
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Author of The Art of Western Tai Chi Ch'uan

Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 11-Apr-2012 at 05:14 PM. Reason: grammar and information
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  #21  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANGELSGYMSINGH View Post
Also to shootdog.... about the Looking like MMA thing Renzo Gracie who uses Pranayama and Hatha Yoga regimens to move like a Cat and have the fabled strength of a Panther
i remember renzo saying that although it doesnt help his BJJ directly, it helps him relax and get more flexible.

i think the secret of tese guys is that they train hard and plan their fight tactics. they have a game plan; they know that in the first round they need to control the centre or get a takedown.
its all good preparation.

also it would help my poor comprehension if you wrote a lot less and simplified your essays
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  #22  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 05:19 PM
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ANGELSGYMSINGH ANGELSGYMSINGH is offline
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thanks ZAAD.. I will try brotha I will try.. but this research stuff is like crack... i try to kick but i cant.... just keep givin me hits and take my to rehab when I stray.... lol

BTW if I were as effective as Renzo was and my secret was the stuff I metioned I would play it down too... because for anyone hungry enough to try anything the stuff is too ease and quite frankly like crack... it feels real good to use on the uninitiated.... lol ,,, but I could be wrong!!!!!
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ATCQA Professional, Retired Owner of Angel's Gym
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Author of The Art of Western Tai Chi Ch'uan

Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 11-Apr-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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  #23  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnno View Post
With respect, I think you are mistaken on this point.

The Yang and Wu styles were created in the early years of the Chinese Republic (i.e. in the years following the revolution of 1911.) They were based on the Chen family system which was older - although whether it is 'centuries' old is debateable. It certainly wasn't availbale to the 'Western public', as it was only taught outside the Chen family from the late nineteenth century onwards.
Yang system should be dated at least from the mid-late 1800s when his sons were teaching.It wasn't Chen system,at least it was no longer externally shaped that way. Wu system wasn't really created,it's Chuan Yuck's Yang.

You're probably right about the age,there's even the theory that what Chen,C-h was teaching,and what he taught to Yang, was an outside system and that the Chen system was Pao Ch'ui,not the form but a system.

So anyway, Chen was taught outside the clan in the earlier 1800s-don't forget Wu,Yu-hsiang.Were all Zhao Bao practitioners named Chen? I don't know.

Angel said-"It is very possible and often likely that those transmissions are not fully disclosed and some of the best medical and martial strategies and techniques are kept for an inner circle of family members ad iinitients."

Possible,Angel? More like the common reality.Tho' medical practices as inherent in TC and as part of the transmission from ye slightly older days is debatable-even rather historically suspect.

Good to "see" you here again.
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Last edited by El Medico; 11-Apr-2012 at 05:55 PM. Reason: spelling,what else?
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  #24  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ANGELSGYMSINGH View Post

BTW if I were as effective as Renzo was and my secret was the stuff I metioned I would play it down too... because for anyone hungry enough to try anything the stuff is too ease and quite frankly like crack... it feels real good to use on the uninitiated.... lol ,,, but I could be wrong!!!!!
what if his secret was black magic and virgin sacrifice.
or even performance enhancers.
its all speculation.
however what he teaches works for many many other people.
roger gracie is the best one of the best grapplers alive and the guys who come out of his place are of equal standard to black belts of other bjj places, so unless there is a giant conspiracy, im quite sure hard work and planning determines outcome.
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Old 11-Apr-2012, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ANGELSGYMSINGH View Post

BTW if I were as effective as Renzo was and my secret was the stuff I metioned I would play it down too... because for anyone hungry enough to try anything the stuff is too ease and quite frankly like crack... it feels real good to use on the uninitiated.... lol ,,, but I could be wrong!!!!!
Only the true Messiah would deny it...
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  #26  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 05:52 PM
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Hard work and planning is what codified forms that reinforce ones most effective techniques, internal and external, is all about Bros ... Not sure what the Messiah thing means but thanks for the comment Odds ... lol

Thanks Medico... had to do some retiring, more formal study... researching and practice to have something substantive to spark the passion of fistic frisky traditionalists... lol ... but its good to be back.... I thank you for alot of your critiques in the Illusive Pugilism thread.... you vetting helped solidify the final drafts of my book which got and is still getting some great reviews ... moreover finally leading to my somewhat elegant prototype-contraption called the WTCC Wooden Dummy... friggin thing gives a whole new definition to the Wu Mengxia Song discussing Heaviness in Lightness.... you should check it out in the vid above..... G
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Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 11-Apr-2012 at 05:58 PM. Reason: forgot to mention Medico
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Old 11-Apr-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by El Medico View Post
Yang system should be dated at least from the mid-late 1800s when his sons were teaching.It wasn't Chen system,at least it was no longer externally shaped that way.
maybe I misinterpreted what I have read about it then.

Quote:
Wu system wasn't really created,it's Chuan Yuck's Yang.
Chuan Yuo, not Chuan Yuck!

You are right though, Wu style came from Yang style (as Yang style was practised back then.) I didn't elaborate on that because it wasn't really relevant to the point that I was making, but you are correct anyway.

Edit: Out of curiosity, I checked up on the history, and it states that back in the early days, Wu Chian Chuan omitted some of the repetitions, jumping and stamping movements of the 'old style'. Now I assumed this to mean the Chen style, but if the Yangs weren't practising the Chen style at this time then it must mean that the Yang style bore a closer resemblance to the Chen style at that time and that what we think of as the original Yang style (which is almost identical to tye Wu style) was created at about the same time.
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  #28  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 06:30 PM
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....... for what its worth is to keep it real, martial arts are not always about fighting at all, even when your sparring. Sometimes its just about fitness and learning some technique. .
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  #29  
Old 11-Apr-2012, 07:15 PM
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Brotha Zaad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaad View Post
what if his secret was black magic and virgin sacrifice.
or even performance enhancers.
its all speculation.
however what he teaches works for many many other people.
roger gracie is the best one of the best grapplers alive and the guys who come out of his place are of equal standard to black belts of other bjj places, so unless there is a giant conspiracy, im quite sure hard work and planning determines outcome.
After viewing these vids he just might be using magic and virgin sacrifice... cause there aint no way that his very professional and well trained, physically equal opponents were this outclassed simply by Spider only training as the noirmal MMA practitioner does and just being a better athlete.... no friggin way.... just look at these "Ownings" to present just a sample and we don't even wanna start on Lyotas stoppages. They are able to do this because the people they fought do not respect traditional training regimens... and some have still not learned::::::

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mH6U0yi58A&feature=related"]Anderson Silva 2011 highlights - YouTube[/ame]

If the UFC ever needed a enema by a Traditionally trained MMA Striker before the coming of the Spider it will never need another.... natural talent noted this Master's power comes from skill, codified form and integrated Eastern and Western Martial systems.... Muay Thai is a competitive style of silat born from the Muay Boran Close Quarters Combat System whose foundation is Mahayana Buddism or the Spiritual Warrior ethos that spawned Chan Budiihsm for the Shaolin Order ... This guy not only owns people he has beaten... he schooled them ... sela
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SSG/US Army Ranger (Retired) G. Singh, M Ed., MSIR
ATCQA Professional, Retired Owner of Angel's Gym
Author of Jade Dragon Article Series, Illusive Pugilism
Author of The Art of Western Tai Chi Ch'uan

Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 11-Apr-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 11-Apr-2012, 07:17 PM
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If the UFC ever needed a enema before a Traditionally trained MMA Striker before the coming of the Spider it will never need another.... natural talent noted this Master's power comes from skill, codified form and integrated Eastern and Western Martial systems.... Muay Thai is a competitive style of silat born from the Muay Boran Close Quarters Combat System whose foundation is Mahayana Buddism or the Spiritual Warrior ethos that spawned Chan Budiihsm for the Shaolin Order ... This guy not only owns people he has beaten... he schooled them ... sela
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....... for what its worth is to keep it real, martial arts are not always about fighting at all, even when your sparring. Sometimes its just about fitness and learning some technique. .
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