Boxing,kickboxing and Thai boxing.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by neems, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    Kinda, You see Karate has shotokan, goju ryu wado and kung fu has wing chun hung gar choy le fut, so Kickboxing has styles American kickboxing (what is termed full contact karate), savate, oriental kickboxing (k1 & low kick) and of course burmese bando and muay thai. combatants can compete in the regulatory ruling system based on the style and rules i.e I.S.K.A, W.K.A or the Federation internatonal savate etc.
    so full contact kickboxing shouldn't be confused with point fighting semi-light continuos etc which is freestyle karate but some also call it kickboxing aswell.
    You see even in boxing you have different styles the killer, abusher the southpaw the theif the raider, like Ali or Pacman and mayweather depending on the coach and trainer and the fighter.
    I would say learn to box effectively, kick-kickboxing savate and muaythai but develop good foot work striking range & target range. there is know general effective style cos its like A can beat B and B Beat C that doesn't mean A can beat C
     
  2. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    If you watch the fight between Muay Thai's Ramon Dekkers and Savate's Francoise Pennacchio you will understand, the both met on middle ground low kick rules. Pennacchio won. you see Ramon could possibly win in thai and pennacchio in savate.

    you see even in Thai you get different styles. in savate you get point fightng and full contact
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I know how fast hands can be. I've got pretty fast hands. Even made faster with compound attacking.

    The fastest punches are somewhere around 90 mph. The fastest kicks around 70 mph, if I remember correctly. Although there are a few that punch and a few that kick faster than this.

    I think what is going on is we are using different measures for speed. One measure for speed is straight forward, the time it takes to cover the distance from zero to 100% speed. This is like the speed of draw. This is a fair measure for speed. Perhaps if were were talking about point fighting, this would be one of the more important measure of speed.

    However, the measure of speed that I am talking about is one that matters more in the ring, for example. What matters is how much time the opponent has to make adjustments to your attacks. For example, you can be slower than the opponent in movements, but if the opponent can't figure out what you are doing until it is too late, then in effect, your slower movements are faster.

    A situation when kicks are very fast based on time to react is when you are engaging with the hands, the kick can come off of punches or a clinch. You may be throwing punches at your opponent and they are busy with your hands, then suddenly you throw that kick with the same motion as a clinch or punch. Your opponent is moving thinking they are safe from your punch and bam you nail them with that kick, which is right in range.

    Basically, your opponent never sees the kick coming, giving them very little to no time to make adjustments.

    Neem had mentions punches not needing to move the feet to be powerful. I still use footwork with my punches... this comes from boxing, even if my punching step is only a few inches or less. But my main point is that if you are caught not moving your feet, how in the world are you going to have time to defend against that low kick? That low kick is going to come faster than you can move.
     
  4. neems

    neems Valued Member

    Thanks for the input everyone,one thing I will say the rebel wado is speed is speed,not range.

    And if my opponent is in range and an opportunity for a power punch presents itself I wouldn't worry too much about taking a low kick.
     
  5. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    Rebel Wado is talking about quick not fast / speed you know like the toirtoise and the hare. As Musashi states in the book of 5 rings speed can trip you up but quickness is taking the opportunity, at 40 or 50 you may not be faster than a 20 year old but some old guys out there will put you out of comm, Wado is being philosophical I guess, he is right, I have always fought and trained full contact, in real combat boxing or kickboxing it's not how quick you land a shot, it's about combinations, broken rhythm, incorporating and assimilate your offence and defence and ability to make initial recce and analyse your opponent, and being ruthless
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  6. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    Neems, worry about that low kick cos Don Wilson vs Dennis Alexio, Alexio a powerful boxer a killer style fighter,Don Wilson strategically used his low kicks to dominate control and win the fight, you can't stand, you can't punch, your foot work goes out the window your muscles will seize if your not blocking them and just taking the kick on the inner / outer thigh...respect the low kick, Also you ain't landing or getting in range against a low savate chasses bas or coup de pied bas......revers tournant bas
    p.s savateurs fight with shoes.....
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  7. neems

    neems Valued Member

    I'm not underestimating the low kick,but if I'm in range to punch and an opportunity arises to land a power punch to the head,I'll take that even if he's setting up a big low kick because:
    A) once my shot lands he won't follow through with his kick anyway
    B)even if he did somehow follow through properly a powerful punch to the chin may not end a fight outright but will probably put me in a position where I can follow up and either score big or hurt/stop him.

    Again this is supposing I'm in range,I'm not assuming I can just jump into punching range ignoring wverything else and knock people out.
     
  8. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    The boxer uses the jab to take the opportunity and set up the combination, a boxer who wait's, hesitates or uses single punches is finished because he's not even a novice. to get into range the puncher needs to a) step slide or push shuffle or use the jab or lunge in with a jab or cross and then throw a broken rhythm combo.. the problem is what your saying is hypothetically biased in your favour...if you got to do that you have a better chance at the lottery. Anyone who's tried that with me kissed the canvas... because a kick won't come in cold, it would come in with a catch, a parry, a block evasion a shoulder roll and a combination of low kicks trips and sweeps that would displace the puncher, you have to anchor your feet for that power punch, the lead sweep low kick and punching combo takes care of that, I'm giving away trade secrets I may just stop soon, combat, battle and war is about strategy. Also consider your power punch/forearm landing on an elbow instead of a head....
     
  9. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    Oh what the hell! this is a one-time thing, here goes a free lesson
    against a kicker you box against a boxer you kick or wrestle against a wrestler you box and kick, get it! you take the other guy out of his environment, and when you think of kickboxing don't think of just muay Thai low kicks coming round, imagine hard intercepting straight front and side kicks stamping at your shins and front of thighs at the initiation of a punch, think of the shoe as a weapon.
     
  10. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    a
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  11. neems

    neems Valued Member

    [/QUOTE=warchylde;1074959270]The boxer uses the jab to take the opportunity and set up the combination, a boxer who wait's, hesitates or uses single punches is finished because he's not even a novice. to get into range the puncher needs to a) step slide or push shuffle or use the jab or lunge in with a jab or cross and then throw a broken rhythm combo.. the problem is what your saying is hypothetically biased in your favour...if you got to do that you have a better chance at the lottery. Anyone who's tried that with me kissed the canvas... because a kick won't come in cold, it would come in with a catch, a parry, a block evasion a shoulder roll and a combination of low kicks trips and sweeps that would displace the puncher, you have to anchor your feet for that power punch, the lead sweep low kick and punching combo takes care of that, I'm giving away trade secrets I may just stop soon, combat, battle and war is about strategy. Also consider your power punch/forearm landing on an elbow instead of a head....[/QUOTE]

    I wasn't really talking about puncher vs kicker,just about basing techniques on their merits.

    There are opportunities when you can stop your opponents kick by landing a punch while it's being set up/executed and the reverse is true as well,especially if your opponent lunges in with his punches.

    There is no correct technique just the correct technique in a given instance (not my words) in the instance I wrote about,which is not uncommon punching would be the better option,because they are faster,hit vulnerable targets more accurately and leave you less exposed (in that range).

    My point is someone committed to a technique can't react quickly or effectively, so if they cover with an elbow as they kick for example I'm not going to punch there,they won't have time to cover up in a different way to block my faster shot once they've committed to their kick.
     
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Nice theory - let me know how it works out for you

    In seriousness, martial arts is not a game of rock-paper-scissors....it is far more to do with the attributes of the fighter than anything else. "No plan ever survives contact with the enemy"

    Look at Bukakaw. Note how he kicks in "punching range"; your idea to "punch when he commits" is moot because he just blasts through

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C_yDdSn0cs"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C_yDdSn0cs[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  13. neems

    neems Valued Member

    It's worked well so far,I suppose the most obvious example I can think of is my old coach telling a good A class fighter to test the new head guards he wants him to with 50% power punch a newb in the head,it'll also build confidence in said newb.

    What the lad doesn't know is the newb has instructions to teep him as soon as he gets in range.

    Do you think the pro fighter evades,catches or blocks this slow and obvious teep?
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Ridiculous comparison because of the disparity in skill level - put the pro against another one of equal ability in that scenario and he gets teeped
     
  15. neems

    neems Valued Member

    I'm not saying it's a flawless strategy,but he will be far less able to adapt once he's committed.

    Now the beast will no doubt smash through whatever it is the mere mortal facing him does,and you can jam your opponent or cover where the counter is likely to come from.

    I get that if you're going up against someone who can juat wade through your best shots regardless its not going to work effectively.
     
  16. neems

    neems Valued Member

    My point is I've seen him try it a few times on different lads and a few did get teeped by the slow predictable teep,IMO not because they're committing but over thinking their shot.
    I.e don't want to hit a possibly nervous lad in the head,being purposefully slow etc

    I know it's hardly solid evidence,its just a joke really.
    but that coach used it as an example for the point I made.
     
  17. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    As Hannibal said "attributes", there are no absolutes or such a thing as superior techniques full stop just superior attributes, this whole thing if he does this I'll do that and then this and then that, my coach would never entertain because it always happened, it became kinda disrespectful and he would simply demonstrate by knocking the person out and that would turn hypothesis into an answer. what works today against someone may not against someone tomorrow so on and so forth, in regards to effectiveness I have always boxed but you see I've also done Filipino boxing and kickboxing they destroy your weapons kicks or punches, so that example of the teep; well who cares doesn't really matter....you're not working on the principles and concepts but "scenarios." I'd catch his foot with my teeth and bite his toe lol
     
  18. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    to Neems:
    Q. is the elbow and knee a long or short range weapon?
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    In a nutshell!

    This is the danger with many artists and trainees these days - not just in kickboxing but across the board

    "Person does X I respond with Y"

    Billy Robinson used to laugh at people who talked like this because it removes so much from the equation and effectively relegates the opponent to the role of "uke" - develop the attributes, work the techniques and take your openings when you see them; everything else becomes "paralysis by analysis"
     
  20. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    to hannibal
    you are absolutely right because when you spar or fight you have to be pro active, reactive adapt and so much more. Do you know Pete Chassikos toronto JKD? i'm from london btw
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015

Share This Page