What are you fighting for?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Late for dinner, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I already thought of this before Sifu Ben came up with the sport vs self defence thread but the two are sort of related.

    What does the art you train in set you up to do?

    Some arts are weapon heavy and assume that you either have or can access a weapon.

    Some styles were developed with a perspective on how empty hand techniques might be applied on a battlefield.

    Some styles are suited mainly for personal protection/self defense and are not built around the idea of dealing with multiple opponents.

    Some styles are built not to protect but to allow one to bypass opponents.

    We tend to look at some sort of test situation and say this art will or wont work. But considering the original purpose of an art might make it more understandable why the art developed the way that it did.

    What was your art designed for (or what might it be good for) and how well do you think it achieves it's aims?

    LFD
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    From a Karate perspective? I'd say the closest thing to an answer to that, given modern contexts and variety, is "no one has any bloody clue anymore" :p (old Okinawan Karate, to the best of my knowledge, approaches the physical combat aspect from more of a honey badger approach, just get stuck in, try to get control, and break the other guy into many tiny little pieces from that position of control)

    From my own perspective regarding some sort of approximation of an "ideal"? I consider that what I do is more abstracted motor training, and the stuff more in line with what you're asking is more the purview of individual schools, or even individual practitioners, incorporating contextual/pressure-tested/scenario-based drills and training methods to bridge the divide between the motor abstractions, the way they can be made to work on human bodies, and making it do so in specific sets of circumstances (different sport fighting rulesets, anything goes bloody murder brawling, battle royales, legal street self defense/protection, 1-on-1 non-sport duelling, or whatever). I myself am content just developing the motor skills for fun and games, but always in the context of what I'm doing being ways of physically hurting people, and thus trying always to execute them in such a way that the techniques manifest the attributes that make them hurty and ouchy, even if my actual "fighting" skillset is rusty and disused from lack of regular training.

    From my perspective re: my above opinion,styles like Karate in the modern age (obviously not applicable to arts which have retained very well defined goals unto their current context), the style is just the LEGO set, but you have to go yourself and see how you go about using your set to jury rig a 1:1 scale Voltron vs. the Teletubbies diorama. Results, of course, may vary :p
     
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Currently: boxing -- hurt the other guy
    Formerly: aikido -- constructively deal with my own anger
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Do you want every art individually or should I just state my goals?
     
  5. kandi

    kandi Valued Member

    Get fit, have fun, socialise, understand body mechanics, grow in confidence, check out the eye candy, basic sparring.
     
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    With TKD I honestly think it was designed to help rebuild Korean national and martial identity after occupation by the Japanese. Other than that I don't think it was "for" anything other than some fairly loose notions of fighting and self defence.
    That said with the heritage of TKD going back to Okinawan karate (honey badger fighting as Fishy so nicely put it), via Japanese university "jock" karate I actually find a lot of facets to it so it can be good for quite a lot of things.
    Beyond what it's usually credited with which is "good at kicking so long as low kicks and clinching aren't allowed". :)
     
  7. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Hey who would want to limit you mate? :D

    That being said, don't you do the art that is all about ''efficient'' effective fighting? Isn't that what it was created for?

    You have my permission to elucidate as suits! ;' )

    I don't doubt that it will be interesting irrespective of what you chose to write about! :' )

    LFD
     
  8. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Interesting comments. I don't know Korean martial arts history that well but I was under the impression that Korean equivalent of judo (Yudo) and Tae Kwon Do were derived from Japanese (as opposed to Okinawan) karate. Will have to read up a bit more. Can you reference the Okinawan influence at all?

    I can see what you are saying in the first sentences. I think that sports/martial arts are often used as a way of making people more nationalistic. I bet that there are many martial arts that would fit under that description of what the ''art is for''.

    I learn something new every day at MAP!!

    LFD
     
  9. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I saw a breakdown of how aikido might be useful in a mob/riot situation which gave me a completely different perspective on this art. I think that it's always good if you can use an art for personal improvement/enlightenment (whatever that means :' )

    Great answer!

    LFD
     
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    BJJ - Because im lazy, But still enjoying beating people up.
    Wrestling - because pulling guard should always plan b
    MMA - because I need to remember why pulling guard should always be plan b
    Judo - Because everyone needs a secret weapon.

    But really BJJ because its a lot of fun.
     
  11. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Who knew that karate class had so much to offer!

    Does your particular version of karate have an maxims or expectations of how the art will affect the students?

    Here's what the karate style I originally studied told us:

    ''Our Mission:

    To provide martial arts training that encourages personal growth and development for each individual student at his or her own pace, emphasizing both physical and mental conditioning.

    To uphold standards of excellence that inspire students to see beyond their current potential and reach new levels of personal success by setting goals and achieving them, building character, and improving confidence and self-esteem.

    To instill traditional martial arts values of respect, discipline, honor, loyalty, family, and courage, building leadership skills and social accountability.

    To provide an environment that supports each student on their martial arts journey toward discovering and claiming their own personal power from within and teaching the discipline and self-control to take responsibility for that power. ''

    Pretty comprehensive eh! Not sure that sometimes take this stuff over the top and have really large expectations. :' )

    LFD
     
  12. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    So you're fighting for the craick then is mate? Why not!

    Would you consider these all to be oriented around sport competition rather than be pretending to be anything else?

    I have seen some recent comments from the BJJ world about ''the BJJ lifestyle'' , ''club loyalty'' etc that seems to be moving this art slowly into uncertain waters. I wonder whether some of the aims might be unspoken but still understood. Or at least they used to be.

    Cheers for the reply.

    LFD
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah...but Japanese Karate was derived from Okinawan karate. The kata, basic techniques, etc predate karate in Japan. So in my opinion some of the "DNA" of Okinawan Karate is still in TKD (albeit chopped up and mixed around a bit).
    Sadly not as much as I'd like but it's in there and as such is a thread I like to trace back and explore.
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I originally got into martial arts for self defence reasons, ended up doing some very traditional styles, ten years did some cross training, and realised that it's the training method not the 'moves' which makes a fighter good or not.

    Ive since been in a few physical situations, and found that skills that work.... Work, skills that dont.... dont.

    BJJ was originally meant to develop fighters for 1 on 1 unarmed fights, and it does that well.

    But now, some BJJ is taught to win IBJJF comps, some is taught to win MMA comps, some is taught to win Sub only comps, as long as the focus is kept broad, and the training realistic then evolution will do its good work.


    Club loyalty is good, a good practioner is the result of a strong community,
    but loyalty runs two ways, and can often be used by bad people.

    The BJJ lifestyle is part marketing and part general healthy living.
     
  15. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I train to be dangerous and get as good as I can at techniques that I enjoy. Those are done for their own sake, but I do sort of angle towards habits and tactics that work for me at work. I stopped using head-and-arm and started focusing on knee-on-belly so I can see and deal with both hands, and disengage at will. I also moved from a bottom focused game to a heavy, grinding top game for the same reason. Proactive takedowns became more important than counter-throws as well.
     
  16. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Funny thing about my question is that sometimes I ask myself, what the heck am I doing in the middle of a hall swinging around a 7 foot halbred?

    Getting ready for the Zombie Apocalypse? Has to be some better reason than culture, fitness or to preserve history.. ;' )

    No wrong answers possible but it's interesting how my title may have confused the meaning of my question.

    I guess I've created a 2 headed monster!

    so question 1 was , what does your style do (or pretend to do) and how well do you think it achieves it

    and now question 2, what are you trying to achieve by going down to the gym/kwoon/dojo/dojang yadda yadda each day.

    Sort of clarifies things? No?

    LFD
     
  17. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    1) Currently: boxing -- hurt the other guy. And yes, it achieves it well. :D

    Formerly: aikido -- constructively deal with one's own anger. Yes, I think it achieves that well, too.

    Giving serious thought to: BJJ -- unarmed one-on-one self-defense. Yes, I think it achieves that very well.


    2) Get back into shape, and do something that I never did in all those years at the dojo: full contact, full speed, sparring where I'm getting hit in the face. (I did other things in the past, but not that.) My career will be short because I'm not 22 years old anymore :p
     
  18. kandi

    kandi Valued Member

    Yeah - I honestly think our club does that. We're a family club with lots of kids and teenagers, and each of them naturally find a "mentor" within the club that slightly stretches them, that they look up to, and who expect them to give 110%. I think it's great for that kind of personal development.

    Then, the kids leave and the seniors knock the snot out of each other.

    It's a beautiful balance. We train a full contact style (kyokushin) but to each person's level. I'm not quite full contact yet... as a 130 lb female up against 190 lb men I doubt I ever will be, but it is hard enough and realistic enough for me to be stress tested.

    I quite enjoy the way karate teaches me to appreciate body movement. There's only so many ways a body can move, and the appreciation for hip movement and shifting of your centre of gravity is helpful regardless of your ultimate style.
     
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well I guess I'll leave out the individual arts and just write briefly "why I'm fighting".

    I started training in martial arts associated with MMA when I tried to wrist look a 200lb grown man and it didn't work. Got good and wanted to see if it would work. Fought twice and realised it worked. Lost and realised I could be a lot better. Now I'm just in it to see how far I can go. Now being offered opportunities. One day want to open my own gym.

    Also train Kali very occasionally, just so I have an understanding of weapons.
     
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    When I started I just wanted a measure of self protection
    Through highschool I wanted a host of dangerous physical skills to compliment the risky behaviours I was involved in
    Through university it was a way to expand the skills I'd gained and just have another social group
    Now it's a tool in the toolbox at work

    As to how well my current art fills the last one...my way of training it does to a good degree, the traditional focus on primarily striking does not. I really want to add BJJ back into the training mix again and hopefully can by the end of summer.
     

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