Just a question for the Ninjutsui people

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Rataca100, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    I cant think of a title, sorry.



    I only have a very small amount of knowledge on the topic both hisotical and actual training (training i ahve nothing for ninjutsui)

    But can i ask, how useful is it to learn along with what are the apparent pros and cons.

    To my understanding a Ninja is primarily a spy therefore would use words & not need to engage in combat unless something went very wrong or they were drafted for sabotage/assassination.

    excuse wording and if it has been asked/argued before.

    To word it another way, how does Ninjutsu in history compare to other methods?

    In my mind something primarily used for spy work wouldn't be that useful for someone ho does not use spy work let alone spy work back to when swords where common. I am so-so interested ina historical analysis as well as a effectiveness of modern schools on average and how well it has been applied to modern day.

    (i am aware its a modern term like bushido to just define what they did rather than leave it undefined & unamed)

    I cant really think of a better way to ask/start a discussion on this.
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    When you talk about Ninjutsu - specifically within a more modern context - you are talking about a broad range of skills that do include such things as espionage, poisons etc...

    The overwhelming majority of modern practitioners spend their time on the combat aspects - Taijutsu (with weaponry as well) so the actual training is a subset. I know very few who would even dream of calling themselves "Ninja" seriously, although for day to day conversation it is acceptable as it saves a lot of faffing about with explaining the nuances of what they train in

    I have seen a lot of bad Taijutsu, but have equally seen very GOOD and I believe the system has much to offer if you find such a teacher.

    The running joke (well not a joke it is just advice offered by one of teh regualr poster Please Reality who is my only real rival for "angriest MAPper") is you need to go to Japan for the really good stuff - and in actuality this is probably correct on the whole
     
  3. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned



    Just to expand on that, why is it/why would it be called Ninjutsu if the school in question only really focuses on the combat aspect of it?
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The same way you would call Taekwondo "Korean Karate" when it first started or that "MMA" is used rather than "a ruleset that combines various disciplines into a sporting full contact format that is designed for optimising combat realism whilst still bring as safe as possible"

    Put it this way....You know (roughly) what a Ninja is correct? That's why they use it

    Plus it sells well thanks to cinema
     
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Because if you started learning about espionage, assassination and poisons you'd be on so many watchlists the government would be tagging you on Facebook photos.
     
  6. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    ^^ It's for posts like that, that I miss not having a "thanks" button! :D :p
     
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Same :'(
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    this is pure gold!

    but hanni, you're not even close to the angriest map-per--neither is pr.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Don't make me come over there!!!!
     
  10. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Sorry buddy you had to give up the belt when you decided to convert to fluffy rainbows and unicorns :D
     
  11. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member


    The whole ninjutsu thing had me foxed for ages as I did take an interest in it a while back, though never took the plunge to try out any of the xkans.

    I'm guessing you are comparing the historical manuals sources which have been coming over the last few years against the what is done by the bujinkan who are seen pretty much as the foremost modern ninjutsu school tradition.

    To explain why they claim to have a link to ninjutsu would take pages and pages, not to mention the whole issue about lineage (please refrain from dragging the thread in that direction. It's a skeleton horse that doesn't need any more flogging)

    But to be short. The bujinkan teaches skills from nine different schools/traditions
    6 of these traditions they assert are Budo/samurai traditions, and 3 are Ninpo or Subterfuge/Ninja traditions.

    Of the Budo traditions Gyokko Ryu skills appears to be the Foundation upon which many of the clubs/dojos base their fundamental skill sets, though apparently this varies quite a bit according to their teachers.

    Of the Ninpo traditions the only one that is taught (I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong) is Togakure Ryu, which is what gave Bujinkan it's fame during the 1980's. I am given to understand that even today this tradition in rarely taught in its entirety and even then only in seminars. Though apparently the Bujinkan offshoots the Genbukan and the Jinenkan do offer the opportunity to study the Togakure tradition as a whole, rather than selected bits.

    As far as I understand Togakure Ninpo which is only one of the nine traditions is divided into three sections

    Gotonpo - elemental techniques to evade enemies, which includes camoflage, fire diversions, silent swimming techniques, digging holes, using grass anf foliage to break up your shape etc etc

    Swordsmanship ( I forget the name of the scroll) particular ways of using the ninjas primary weapon. I have some ideas about this, but because I look at it from the point of view of a sport fencer I may come to the wrong conclusions, so I will refrain from commenting.

    Taijutsu - hand to hand techniques.

    The taijutsu section is interesting because it's divided up again into three sections:

    1) Ukemi Gata - basically pressing climbing (hand spikes) equipment into service as impromptu weapons when confronted by a armed guards.

    2) Gaeshi Gata - Climbing To higher ground or rolling Away from danger, as well as danger sensory perception techniques and things such as throwing shuriken throwing your sword and paticular sword tactics when confronted with enemies.

    3) Santo Tonko no Kata - basically physical escape techniques when someone tries to arrest/stop you and escaping encirclement by a number of enemies. Blinding powder and shuriken are used quite a lot here.

    There are a number of critical things that are not always obvious.

    1) techniques above apparently make more sense when done in low light conditions.
    2) heavily dependent on a couple of tools that are specific to togakure ryu which apparently are specialities (I.e. Not really found in other ninja traditions) Suriken, Shuko (hand claws - climbing equipment really) and a type of sword peculiar to the togakure traditions with a unusually long grip.
    3) Blinding powder - common to many historical ninja manuals.
    4) The hand to hand bits are not really fighting techniques to dominate an opponent. They primarily physical escape techniques involving the tools of that school specialises in.
    5) The only full combat section is the Swordsmanship, but that wouldn't be surprising as the historical manuals refer to the sword as the primary weapon on ninjutsu practitioners. British sailors had specific cutlass drills to take into account they had a shorter weapon and fought on a ship. It would not be surprising that ninjas developped techniques for a shorter katana too.

    So the Togakure Ryu Taijutsu bits seem to dovetail nicely with the physical skills a nighttime infiltrator may need to use if he was discovered and screwed his mission up and needed to escape so on balance, I think yeah they can be called ninja skills. How many in the bujinkan practice these skills is anyone's guess.

    Apparently there's lots more in the scrolls that havn't been made public and lots of oral transmission (for example stuff about how the blinding powder and the shuriken is kept in the inside pocket) and a lot of esoteric spiritual stuff. But you would really need to find someone to teach you this stuff.

    Or go to Japan apparently.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm sure Dunc will clear things up, but it's my understanding that the Bujinkan teach Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is derived from the 9 schools but not the same as studying the schools themselves, hence why BBT students don't get menkyo kaiden, no matter how many dans they've got in BBT.
     
    Smitfire likes this.
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I’ll do my best to answer the questions (re-ordered for my benefit)

    Technically it’s not called ninjutsu. The art is called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and the traditional school that people are referring to is called Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu
    Both these names really refer to the way of moving one’s body (as opposed to cooking up poisons & all that)

    Ninjutsu has become the shorthand term that westerners use for the style

    All styles evolve according to the situation that their practitioners find themselves in and the other styles that they interact with

    The styles that developed in the Iga region of Japan (famous for its ninjas) developed a bit differently from the mainstream styles that developed in the larger cities
    Iga is a mountainous region which attracted folk from Japan and China/Korea who were a little “counter-cultural”. There were people who had experience of being on the losing side of conflict, people who practiced certain religions, people who lived in nature and so on
    So the Iga traditions have a bit of a Chinese feel to them, they have mystical/religious elements, they consider how to use nature and put more emphasis on surviving (vs winning), dealing with situations when you’re “out-gunned” etc
    So the styles tend to skew towards techniques for escaping, using deception, non-mainstream weapons etc


    The people from Iga had skills that lent themselves well to what we might now consider to be special forces operations or spying, but they also had castles, were employed as body guards, were farmers etc

    The mindset & movements of the style are a little different from many styles for the reasons outlined above. So in my view it lends itself quite well to surviving dangerous situations in a modern context

    But as others have said the training methods are such that there are some awesome clubs and some terrible clubs and everything in between. So I don’t think it’s helpful to try to look at the effectiveness of the average club


    Mixed bag in my view
    Others will likely disagree with me but in my experience most clubs teach BBT, which is probably best thought of as the TenChiJin or foundations of Togakure Ryu, but many also train in the schools also
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2017
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Thanks, dunc! :)
     
  15. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    @ Botta Dritta

    Agree with a lot of your post - thanks!

    It's maybe worth mentioning that Togakure Ryu is designed to sit on top of another system (e.g. Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu)

    I'm not sure how many generations back this goes but the Ten Chi Jin is taught as part of Togakure Ryu
    If you look through the Ten Chi Jin you'll see that this is a pretty comprehensive unarmed martial art covering everything from stretches, breathing, body conditioning etc to physical self defence techniques, break falls etc
     
  16. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Well there is some old army training manuals you can find and buy without a problem (along with either illegal or legal free versions in PDF format) Also, tell that to a Toxicologist. :p




    The last point is sadly true.



    Time for some more questions:

    Would it work/have some people kept it true to history or offered a more traditional and historic art on top of a modernised one? It would be more for living history sake.

    Has it also been adapted well into a modern environment? (will remove if answered prior)
     
  17. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Well there is some old army training manuals you can find and buy without a problem (along with either illegal or legal free versions in PDF format) Also, tell that to a Toxicologist. :p




    The last point is sadly true.

    [edit]: Perhaps a unneeded statement but i am interested in ninjutsu, if it is not for defending myself/using it, it will be for history/interest in how it was done historically.

    Time for some more questions:

    Would it work/have some people kept it true to history or offered a more traditional and historic art on top of a modernised one? It would be more for living history sake.

    Has it also been adapted well into a modern environment? (will remove if answered prior)

    Also, doest anyone have any good book/source reccomendations for ninjutsui?
     
  18. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    Sorry, i seem to have accidentally done a multi-post when i was trying to edit my response.

    also cant find the delete button.
     
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah there is old army pdfs on basic soldiering, and many fictional books are written by former SAS guys cover covert stuff. Start practicing it in the dead of night and see what happens.

    Specialising in learning in further education is completely different from a couple of idiots teaching each other how to mix arsenic into drinks. Imagine how many teenage manga-loving ways would poison their families, or otherwise assassinate bullies. Surely you can see why it would be a bad idea?
     
  20. Rataca100

    Rataca100 Banned Banned

    everything is a double edged sword and lots of things you can find by googling. Just watch out for the forensic scientist's turned evil.;)
     

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