Because you want to create a circular motion and your opponent will be that tangent line. All demo are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The 1/2 fake is you have to give your opponent that opportunity. If you just lay down on the ground, no throwing master can throw you. The 1/2 real is your opponent has to finish that throw all by himself. This is the "physics" part. If you help your opponent to finish the throw (such as "because of the pain to the joint"), that's 100% fake.
I know that demos aren't real fighting and that shuai jiao and tai chi both have some devastating throws in their curriculum. I am also aware of your master's reputation so I don't doubt the effectiveness of what he taught. However, there is more than one way to peel an orange. I wouldn't say it was fake, I would say it's a different philosophy of throwing. Why go through all the effort when he can do it for himself. I already explained the physics of it(edited the previous posts a few times so you might have missed it), but there is nothing fake about it I can assure you. Your weight is compromised, your root is gone, your arm is already pointing you in the direction you are going to go and the person doing the technique is merely guiding you or helping you get down to where you already want to go. ps-you're wrong about the laying down part. An aikido master can throw you even if you are laying down, they will just pick you up and throw you on the other side.
Thanks PR. The question that comes immediately to mind now, is with the hoteki throw. What if your opponent decides not to go flying during the second lock and you break it. How does the throw proceed if you have broken there elbow? I am imagining a very painfull Seio nage. Looking at it, I practice a slightly similar movement in my Heiki ryu class.
There is no second lock. You catch his arm and move in from where you caught it, bringing it downwards as you enter in. The break, if it happens, is irrelevant as his balance is going forward and down, his root is compromised, and your body is blocking his escape route. Of course, if you want to get nasty with some of these throws, you lock his knees and immobilize his legs so he can't take ukemi. Not pretty, nor for the faint of heart. Think of looking into a wishing well and deciding to reach for that gold coin you see shining up at you. However, it is deeper than you first thought and your hand goes further down than you expected, bringing your head and body with it and splash, into the well you go.:vanish: We don't create a circle, we want a spiral which includes the concept of circularity but in a direction. Takagi in particular is known for this spiraling movement like a whirlpool. In the Shinden Fudo jutaijutsu, there is a similar technique from a double chest grab where you lock his arms and then squat down right in front of him, using his own arm to throw himself and maybe break an elbow or two at the same time. I'd still rather take my chances in an encounter against your average Booj guy than I would against a sambo, judo, or shuai jiao guy. They are all good arts in their own right and the people who study them seriously are usually quite tough, hard to off balance, and quick.
I see, I mentioned a second lock because the akban video had 2 of them. One at the beginning right after the punch, then the second part where he locked it on the shoulder. However, I can see what your talking about. This notion of spiraling, I think you talked about it before in another context. It seams to be a common theme in the arts you practice.
You hit/push/unbalance the opponent, with footwork and weight adjustment if required, to find a new opening. Locks are largely opportunistic.
When setting up a lock, its best to setup imbalance, control and restraint in more than 1 joint, so that if he does try to break out of the lock, he is restricted elsewhere. Sometimes the opponent's posture/stance/movement/timing will set them selves up for this, so that minimal locking is required. The biggest risk with locks is getting fixated with any potential lock, and in doing so, restricting your own posture/stance/movement/timing, IMHO i.e. locks are 1 tool in the toolbox, but no more than that.
The best locks involve little effort, but attack the entire central nervous system of the opponent - to paralyse him - temporarily or otherwise. Reading when this is 'on', takes a lot of skill, effort and practice; which is why we train, to repeat many, many times.
A punch or a kick is a much smaller commitment and you train with the knowledge that you will miss a lot. Some of these throws seem to put you in an awkward position if you fail to secure the lock, which under pressure is probably the most likely outcome.
To an extent this is true - because most folk - non-MA and MA alike do not make much out of evasion. Once evasion comes significantly into your opponent's game plan, I am not sure that punches and kicks have any more of a success rate than locks/traps/pins/jams/constraints/take-downs etc. How much commitment and energy you expend with what success rate, is down to you and the specifics of your training. Opponents punching at Mohammed Ali generally did not fair very well, and largely tired themselves out. Of course there were exceptions and his later years were sad to watch.
I had a long think about this last night and as you know I spent many years doing judo then had to un-learn everything I had learnt when I started in BBT. The two really are like chalk and cheese. In judo it was largely about power, big throws impressing the judges and going for the ippon with the opponent landing on their back, tsurikomi goshi was one of my favourite finishers. In BBT it is about subtle, no power use, both take someone's balance -- one doesnt put your back out, especially important when you get older! Soke demonstrated a great Ogoshi one day, taking his uke onto his hips so he was using no strength at all, then just flipping the uke off to land painfully on the floor. So personally I think Jigoro Kano or whoever devised the scoring system in judo may have got it wrong, at least in self-defence terms, as it doesn't necessarily encourage the easiest or best form of defence. It does make for great understanding of power and generation of power and there is no doubt that it improves kumiuchi, so I would recommend BBT to do it for at least a small while. This is where the difference between sport and budo come in maybe? But I do miss the randori (not the injuries, mind)
If you think judo was all about power then you were doing it wrong. Judo as a whole makes no claims about sold defence. And despite that lack of focus is still one of the most effective.
Niinpo the only question I would pose to you, is have you actually done those effortless bbt throws on a resisting opponent? One thing I know, is that with a resisting opponent you will end up needing to use some of your own power to effect them. That's is a undeniable fact. So the next logical question is, can the throws in bbt be safely practiced in a randori setting, due to the nature of them being set up with joint locks?
Those are all very good points, and one thing I haven't done yet is gone back to a judo dojo and practiced randori knowing what I know now, I would like to do that one day. But I have had friendly "scraps" with judoka and was very pleased with how easy it was to take their balance, but this was largely using counters. But their aim was to try and throw me, mine was just to take their balance. Regarding the effortless throws on a resisting apponent yes we do practice this sometimes and there are a few ways round this: 1. There are softeners we call them, a strategic blow to some part that will distract them long enough to do the move 2. The set up is very important so that you take their balance in stages, such that they almost don't realise what is happening to them. 3. Change the throw, the theory being here that someone can't continually resist in all directions at all times. 4. The throw type should be governed by the attack of the attacker, so if you don't have a preconceived idea what throw you are going to use, you can use their force, weight and momentum. You see in BBT just doing an isolated throw on a non conforming attacker is hard, it is more the system that works. Keep the questions coming, it's nice to go through the thought process.
I wouldn't say that none of our throws are almost identical to judo. There's tomoe nage, uchimata, and seioi that are pretty much identical, the difference being in the grip used or something pretty subtle. Some of the chokes and submissions are also pretty much the same. Effortless throwing is something that can only be done if you train the correct way, that being using resisting opponents, correct mechanics, and experience to learn how to use physics that many might not be aware of. I have seen only a handful of people who can do this repeatedly(can count them on my fingers without needing toes). For those who train with limp uke and stopping and going motion, they will never be able to demonstrate this ability except on their willing students and training buyu. True technique works on contact and is almost impossible to resist because things are stacked against you, you are off balance, in a bad position, in pain(not necessarily), and blindsided. This is near the end of the spectrum of mastery, but 99.9% of practitioners will never get anywhere close to this plane, so it is best to concentrate on learning correct technique and developing other auxiliary skills that could actually work if your life was on the line instead of attempting to "play" at effortless throws and using the kukan to your opponents disadvantage. People can be beaten or thrown even if resisting if you have a few things in your favor: 1) Better mechanical advantage(this can be better positioning, balance, more body mass on your side, etc) 2) A way around their resistance as their strength works in some planes but not in others. 3) Having them looking or resisting the wrong thing. There are other things, but resistance only works if you are equal or better than the opponent. There are times that when you resist the technique, it hurts you more when it inevitably works. This is high level stuff so many people may not have experienced it.
Hi Kframe, I was thinking about throws similar judo to BBT and for me at least the nearest in feeling are in fact combinations and counters: The first is when your attacker comes in with tai-otoshi and you step over their leg and do osotogari so you use their dropping weight to take them down. The second was one I used to use often, is if you go in for tai-otoshi or ogoshi they resist and you change to osotogari, we have something very similar to this in Kukishinden yaroi kumouchi (fighting in armour) again using minimum of your own power and more about trimming and dynamics. Instead of sweeping you can put your foot down and pull them over your leg or even better stamp into the side of their knee to break it, which of course couldn't be used in judo and makes it difficult to do randori. This type of technique has to be practiced with caution as the knee can so easily be dislocated. Hope you are having a good Sunday!
