Info on Karate styles

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Heimdall, Sep 4, 2016.

  1. Heimdall

    Heimdall New Member

    Hi! Thank you for taking the time to read this.
    So a few years ago I came into contact with a karate "master" that had his own dojo. In polite conversation, I asked what style he taught. He laughed, said something along the lines of what a naive question, you must be stupid to ask this. How years ago, all styles were merged into one, and there are no such things as individual styles anymore. We ended up arguing and never speaking again.

    And a few weeks ago, I ran into another karate master that used to teach isshin ryu. He also told me the same story how all styles were merged into one, and is now known as sport karate, but he was much more polite.
    I said how can this be, when there are at least 3 kyokushin clubs in your city. He shook his head and said there are no kyokushin clubs in Croatia. A quick google search proves he is wrong.

    My question is, whats going on? Why are these people making these strange claims?
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Welcome to the forum Heimdall. At least I think you are new to the forum.

    I can't tell you why things were said that way to you. Usually there is some context that helps to explain things.

    What I did want to say is that you can't trust Google searches for current information. There may be schools listed but sometimes the websites are really old and the school is closed or has moved since the website was last updated.

    Also note that sport karate includes full contact karate, so kyokushin could very well be included in sport karate.
     
  3. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Who ever told you that is speaking drivel.. I have been training in Karate (Shotokan and more recently Kyokushin) since I was 14 and you did not ask a naive question and it is normally the first thing I would ask seeing a new club if it was not advertised.

    As pointed out by Rebel Wado even if he meant competition there are various different formats ie. Knockdown, Points ect. Might want to mention not all systems compete and see it as a form of Budo as well.

    Why you were told this I can not say..
     
  4. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    Hello Heimdall welcome to MAP.

    I am guessing you are student of Norse history/mythology from your name. If so, that is cool.

    Different Karate styles are alive and well. Anyone that tells you different has an agenda. I do Isshinryu myself, and trust me most Isshinryu peeps are 100% into it being a separate style. I suspect it that is the way with all Karate styles.

    Myself, I sort of operate in this model where I am always working on a few martial arts styles in parallel. I'm cool if they don't agree, I work on one of them when I am working on it. I try to not worry when it conflicts with something else I am studying. I think a lot of people do this who study multiple arts. You eventually pick what works for you as your own "uniquely own" thing.

    This is not the same thing as "all styles are merged into one". It would be the rare agenda laden individual who would say this I think.
     
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Both were absolutely right, from a particular point of view.

    As a beginner the differences in technique selection and methodology and pedagogy seem huge. The more you train the more many realise it's all the same thing, and not just karate. On another thread where I am discussing teaching Hannibal's JKD students in Canada we find more in common than divisions, and the same is notable in MAP meets with me looking at the FMA, the dirty boxing, MT, the TKD etc from the perspective of my karate.

    The 'concept' of karate styles is a fairly modern form of labelling that has more credibility as a form of marketing than it does as distinguishing between training methods. The division of styles becomes fairly meaningless the more dojos you visit because you'll see variances not only between every style, but within style associations, and between dojos in the same association (which is why some person might say that you're not seeing Kyokushin even if that's what they say they are). So while the labelling of styles is more commonplace than ever, the accuracy of those labels in indicating something that is genuinely different is a tad misleading. The style labelling can in theory give a beginner who uses google to choose an art an indication of the likely pedagogy through which they will learn their karate, but while it might feel different, if they stick at it and put in the same amount of effort and study they will end up at pretty much the same place (because even if they choose a low quality club in terms of training intensity, a dedicated trainer will make up for that by being drawn to seminars and cross training in other dojos regardless).

    While some choose to set the hugely prevalent Sport Karate disciplines apart, and while their homogeneity is clearer to see and has been encouraged, even there the differences between the different rule sets etc for me do not disguise that they are all pretty much doing the same thing. The differences may look extreme, but actually they are pretty minor in the grander scale of things. While those of us who are not doing the Sport Karate might like to set ourselves apart, the truth is that even if we are using the techniques for different things, the commonalities outweigh the differences (for me anyway).

    Both could have explained themselves better, or given you a more complicated misleading or accurate answer, but I would not class either a wrong per se. They simply have a different opinion / perspective on the nature of karate and styles.

    I label what I'm teaching because it helps other people identify it, but for me it's all just karate.
     
  6. Heimdall

    Heimdall New Member

    Thank you all for your replies, and for responding so quickly.

    Guitar Nado, yes, I love Norse mythology. I have a Mjollnir tattoo on my left arm.
     
  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    last year fish of doom was kind enough to stop over and visit me on his round Britain trip. We spent a very informative evening discussing how the same karate form can be performed in very different ways and how similar karate is to kung fu in forms, applications, and power generation.

    My personal view as an outsider (I am a kungfu person) is that different styles of karate are different in that they have their own particular viewpoint when it comes to learning to fight but they are all the same because they are all looking at the same thing - fighting.
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    JWT, I agree with your thoughtful post, but I got the feeling that these "karate masters" were speaking in negative tone.

    Heimdall, did you get the feeling they were being negative about the state of karate?

    The state of karate may have changed for the worse, according to some accounts with the introduction of "karate-do" replacing "karate-jutsu". This happened more than 80 years ago. I remember talking to folks around 30 years ago that associated karate-do with watering down of karate into kind of a mush of ineffectiveness.

    Here is an article that helps explain the terms: http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/jutsu-vs-do
     
  9. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Actually, I'm not a very experienced person, so I only can speak about pieces I heard here and there, but I do traditional Goju ryu and I reckon it's not aimed to learn to fight, but rather, at self-defence. It has a lot of techniques for short distance and we don't really learn much about strategy that you'd use in a sport fight, for example. But again, I don't know much in general, much less about other styles.

    I heard that there is only one karate, but I get the feeling that the sport and traditional karate is different. At least, if you discard other styles. But I still think they could vary also by the tecniques, that are recorded in the katas (I think?). Ultimately, if you study the styles in depth, they probably merge a lot and I wouldn't desagree the principals and everything and therefore the stayles are the same, but at the beginning when you learn by different methodologies and approaches, I would say there are differences indeed. Apart from Goju I think I mostly only saw Shotokan people, and you can tell the difference right away. Even I can. Although that doesn't say much about the principles of fight/self defence...

    Still, asking what style they're teaching would be the first thing I'd ask, too. It's also a way to learn the lineage of the school - they declare they just didn't make what they teach up, IMHO.
     
  10. Heimdall

    Heimdall New Member

    Rebel Wado, no they weren't speaking negatively about karate, quite opposite. One was trying to convince me it's the ultimate art.
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Interesting. That type of promotion could apply to any martial art.

    My long time karate instructor wondered why I crossed trained in other arts like Aikido and trained in tactical firearms. He was promoting karate, but his words were, "it's all [most people] ever need."

    And, believe it or not, I learned a lot about karate from cross-training in other arts. One could say that Karate does contain all the elements that [most people] would ever need for both fighting, self-defense, health, and other aspects of life.

    I pretty much agree with that line of reasoning except that I believe cross-training is necessary, particularly when more people without actual fighting experience train in the martial arts.

    If you come into karate with some street sense and real fighting experience, then karate provides balance in not just honing skills but other aspects of life as well as developing discipline. If, however, coming into karate without ever really being in violent confrontations, then you may need more than karate training. IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016

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