Is it ok to create your own style??

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kobudo, May 23, 2011.

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  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    There is a good percentage of the martial arts community that believes the bujinkan is a cash grab run my a con man who cannot fight....yet here you are training in it

    (not a knock against the Bujinkan or Hatsumi, just a parallel)

    We know lots about these sparring sessions - you just have to listen to those who were in them

    Guro Dan is universally respected for his skills and has zero - and I mean ZERO - to gain by further perpetuating the myth....yet when you talk to him he speaks with legitimate awe and reverence and STILL upholds Bruce as being someone truly remarkable

    John alluded to something earlier that is probably best picked up on again - he thinsk it's a clumsy question (and it is)

    a "style" is essentially how you do something: what we are really discussing here is creating a SYSTEM (a codified sequence of moves around a central them or themes of mechanical application)

    Bruce did NOT create a new system or style...he sought the exact opposite
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
  2. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    I don't know why you keep bringing the Bujinkan into this. It's almost like you don't read my posts.

    "Guro Dan" has a lot to gain by being associated with one of the biggest legends and icons in the history of martial arts. To A LOOOT of people he is known for the guy who appeared in the Bruce Lee movie and trained with him. To say someone has nothing to gain by being associated with a legend such as Bruce Lee is simply nonsensical. There's a lot of fame and credibility to go alongside with it.

    Bruce Lee could even be god's gift to martial arts. FACT is that you have no proof of that. Just deal with it. That's why he is still talked as being nothing more than a stuntman.
     
  3. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    It's like arguing with a wall.
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I do - it just doesn't reach your standard

    Guro Dan is a black belt in BJJ, Instructor in Muay Thai, Silat, Guro in MULTIPLE kali disciplines, Savate Instructor, Wing Chun sifu and a plethora of other styles and systems - his skillset is beyond doubt and beyond reproach and he could make a fortune training off his own name without once referencing Bruce

    Yet he doesn't

    People do not go to him because of Bruce - they go to him because he is Guro Dan....he knows this yet still talks - and over dinner too in more candid moments - about Bruce

    That is testimony from one of the greatest of all time, one of the most humble and one of the most truthful and honest people there is
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I've said this before... actually, maybe even in this thread, given its age... but it really depends on someone's motivation for creating a new style. And motivation is very often associated with experience level.

    Take Ciriaco (Cacoy) Canete, GM of Doce Pares Eskrima and founder of his personal style Eskrido. His founding his own style makes sense to me. Because he could say "it's Doce Pares Eskrima" and then teach to his personal preferences. But the whole point of naming a thing is to aid in understanding and recognizing it. If I spent years learning Doce Pares (which I did) then went to a GM Cacoy seminar, which I did, I might get very confused at the differences between what I was learning regularly and what I was learning on that day (which I did).

    If he says "we're doing Eskrido now," I have a mental shorthand for "GM Cacoy's synthesis of his backgrounds in judo, aikido, jiujutsu, and eskrima." It aids understanding.

    On the other end of the experiential spectrum is the new guy founding the new style. Someone who lacks decades of experience and recognition and (rightfully) hasn't developed a strong sense of himself or herself in the community. So, rather than develop a sense of belonging over time, he opts to start a new style. That grants him a lack of accountability. "I get that this doesn't resemble the ______ you learned, but this is my own style so it doesn't look like that." No seniors to disapprove. No curriculum to veer away from. No awkward conversations about splitting from a style or organization. Just a blank slate.

    There's no foolproof way to tell where on the spectrum a particular founder/style falls. Some of that determination will always be made in the rear view mirror.

    Names alone aren't even all that helpful. If I heard the names "Zen Do Kai" or "Chun Kuk Do," I'd likely roll my eyes and think "oh God, really?" Then I'd notice that they were founded by legitimate, seasoned martial artists (Richard Norton and Chuck Norris respectively) and think "huh, okay then."

    An old counseling supervisor of mine once said of counseling theories (e.g., cognitive behavioural therapy), "theories are simply a way to organize your work." She meant that, ideally, a theory wasn't a substitute for a thinking person. It was a set of markers that guided practice, but didn't limit it. I think the same holds true for styles. And when you go far enough outside of those markers, it may be time for a new style.

    Whether we need all of these new styles or not isn't really the question. It's human nature to want to be recognized (for better or worse). It's also human nature to organize information and experience in a way that resonates for us personally. So new styles are as inevitable as disagreement on the internet. The question of whether any new style is worth its salt is really no more foolproof than knowing whether any given teacher of an established style is worth his salt. (That guy could be a legit muay thai champ or he could just be some simpering wannabe in colourful shorts.)

    No easy answers. But who needs easy answers?
     
  6. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    How do you know why people go to him? Are you inside their heads? How many people would know of him if it wasn't for Bruce Lee, compared to how many know him right now?

    Dude, just the accept the fact that being associated with a legend has benefits and brings more attention to you. It's just a fact.

    Honestly, i don't care too much about what Inosanto has to say about Bruce Lee. He was hired by Bruce Lee for playing a part in his movie, he benefited from his relationship with this very famous man and to me that's all there is to it. If i were to believe what students say about their instructors, i would have to believe Ueshiba had some sort of magical powers.

    Just deal with the fact that no one can present any sort of proof that Bruce Lee was actually a great fighter. It comes down to whether or not you want to believe it.
     
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Then there's nothing more to say. :dunno:

    To me that there comment is you admitting that you're a troll, but, hey, to each his own.
     
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Temporarily closed.
     
  9. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Whether the thread remains closed is still up for discussion, but I just want to give my opinion on this.

    My understanding is that Guro Dan has 8mm footage of Bruce and that includes some of Bruce's street fights.

    This is his own personal collection and if he wanted to cash in it would be in the public domain already.

    I was told of the existence of these films by my own JKD Instructor who claims to have seen them while in Dan's company.

    Maybe, but it's not always necessary of you want to stand up on your own two feet.

    I teach my own system and not because there was an issue with what I'd done before, but because classes had closed and there was a request from the students to continue.

    By background gave me more than enough to create my own syllabus and it was only right that I gave the system a new name, look and feel.

    In regard to hanging onto the name of others I was very careful not to do this for moral reasons.

    I have an extensive JKD background, but as someone sadly not qualified to use the name I made sure that although my logo only hints at the connection.

    The same with my Eskrima, boxing, and Muay Thai.

    I've trained under names you would know, but omit them from my advertising as this is my system made through my own experiences, training and continued research.

    If asked what it is I will make reference to my past and my instructors because it helps with understanding, but not everyone who has trained with a big name wants to promote themselves of the back of said person.

    If you teach their style however it would be different, because that perpetuates the art and is just a natural part of any good sales technique.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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