Best type of weight training for MA's

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by The Bounder, Aug 11, 2015.

  1. The Bounder

    The Bounder New Member

    I was just wondering what was people’s options of what is the best type of weight training for MA’s. As there seem a lot of much talk about strength/powerlifting the “1xmax rep” style of training, which I understand is good for the type-1 muscle. While this type of training is all very good for 30 seconds of explosive movement from the muscles, which many techniques require this type of movement, as I haven’t developed my skill to such a high level that I can just rely on pure technique. However, my trouble is that most competitions last 3xminutes plus. So I feel the need to develop the type-2 muscles (the endurance type) is also needed. Here is my problem how to develop both of these muscle types 1&2 at the same time without trashing each other’s gains. Any suggestion would be welcomed. :)
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Art you practicing a grappling or striking style?
     
  3. The Bounder

    The Bounder New Member

    Both striking and grappling arts. However, at the moment I want to focus more on my grappling/ground game...I wasn’t too sure if the type of weight training you do varies that much between striking & grappling. As I though you are using the same muscles groups? But hey I am hear to learn.
     
  4. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    My preference is to focus on muscular endurance as I find that most beneficial to my training ie I can keep moving. Lots of movement drills help with grappling such as bridges and sit outs, bridge shrimps etc and can be worked into an endurance routine.
     
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I think you could add 2 days a week absolute strength through compound lifting (5-3-2 for example) without compromising endurance work, energy systems work or your martial arts training and without breaking your body. I'm no expert though.
     
  6. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    Compound exercises with free weights, kettlebells and body weight. I tend to do high reps with short rest periods for endurance. For exercises I tend to choose motions that are either the same or similar to what I would be doing in martial arts training. I also including stretching too (which helps with muscle development and of course flexibility).
     
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    All the basic stuff + whatever pro grappler are doing :)
     
  8. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Honestly I tend to be of the view that as long as you're doing pretty much any form of weight lifting, you'll be fine. Provided that the weight lifting supplements your training and doesn't become your main focus in terms of time management.

    You can do training movements with weighted objects that simulate the movements you would naturally do in you chosen art (such as a lot of Hojo Undo practice in Okinawan Karate, worth a google if you haven't seen it before), which a lot of people enjoy. It's a lot of fun and does make a hell of a difference.

    Also, KarateNerd Jesse did an interesting piece on weight lifting and Karate, but the general point carries over to pretty much any art:

    http://www.karatebyjesse.com/karate-weights-the-eternal-battle/
     
  9. The Bounder

    The Bounder New Member

    http://www.karatebyjesse.com/karate-weights-the-eternal-battle/

    Thanks for the posting of KarateNerd Jesse page. According to Schmidbleicher and Buhrle it is best to do either group 1 or group 3. As I understood it is best to do heavy and light days of training.

    Group 1 used very heavy weights, and lifted them a few times only (90% RM, 3×3)
    • Group 2 used light loads and lifted them a couple of times (45% RM, 5×8)
    • Group 3 used moderate loads and lifted them many times (70% RM, 3×12)


    The results where:
    • Group 1:
    Maximum strength: 18% increase
    Speed-strength: 34% increase
    Activation of motor units (the “speed” of the nervous system): 8 % increase
    Hypertrophy (increase in muscle mass): 10% increase
    • Group 2
    Maximum strength: 17% increase
    Speed-strength: 11% increase
    Activation of motor units: 3 % increase
    Hypertrophy: 10% increase
    • Group 3
    Maximum strength: 21% increase
    Speed-strength: 4% increase
    Activation of motor units: 4 % decrease (!)
    Hypertrophy: 18% increase

    However, doesn't say if they measured any muscle endurance of the participants? Still its food for thought.
     
  10. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Part of the endurance you need for an exercise is actually related to the strength of the muscles and the effort and energy required to perform said exercise. It's not the be-all or end-all of it of course, but it is worth considering.
     
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    if you want to go the studies and technical know-how route, you should pick up some books on strength training and read them cover to cover. the subject is very well researched and backed by decades of application. the "textbooks"on the subject per excellence, so to speak, are mel siff and yuri verkhoshansky's supertraining, and vladimir zatsiorsky's science and practice of strength training. for something more accessible and somewhat less technical/obtuse, you may want juggernaut training systems' scientific principles of strength training, or greg nuckols' science of lifting and art of lifting.

    resistance training principles are the same for everybody, with the application differing depending on your goals and on individual preferences vs. individual optimization. aside from obviously making everything stronger, useful application of strength training to martial arts includes focusing somewhat on developing rotational force, strengthening the lower body, strengthening the abdominal wall, and strengthening the shoulder girdle (which in itself ends up being a solid workout for most of the body anyway due to what the most effective and efficient exercises for such involve).
     
  12. furinkazan

    furinkazan Valued Member

    Funny thing with this. my current plan (courtesy of my brother, a nationally competing powerlifter and trained by the guys from Animal Pak in the US) has me on a programme thats a mix or Group 1 and 2 rep and set counts. Core lifts (bench, deadlift, backsquat) are all heavy weights with low rep and set counts, while accessory work (military press, tricep extension etc) is all closer to group 2's numbers.

    I have found overall the mix has upped my muscular endurance, although one thing that has to be accounted for is since starting my program again I am now on prozac, so my serratonin is higher (and with that, I'm not physically exhausting anywhere near as fast as I used to)
     
  13. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    exact numbers vary a little from sources, but to arbitrarily choose set numbers, about 55% to 85% intensity is usually considered optimal for hypertrophy training, and 70%+ for maximal strength for most people. power (fast application of maximal strength) is trained via maximal strength training as a general characteristic (it looks slow, but that's because the weights are heavy, not because the movent is; maximal strength inequivocally requires constant maximum acceleration, resulting from complete muscle activation), "speed work" (the validity of which for certain pursuits is somewhat disputed) at lower intensities where the weight can still "move fast" (for example, from 50 to 70% ish), via unweighted plyometrics, and via skill work for transference to what you want to do powerfully. from there you manipulate volume accordingly, controlling for fatigue, and try to maximize recovery. for maximal strength development high overall volume is good, but too much volume at once drastically increases recovery requirements and will negatively affect technique (increasing training frequency at constant overall volume is a good way to control for this); for size, volume is king, and concentrating it (doing many sets and/or many reps, particularly pushing the glycolytic energy pathway that kicks in after a few seconds of sustained intense activity), causes metabolic stress that increases the growth stimulus (this is why bodybuilding work overwhelmingly consists of light/moderate weights for tons of reps ala group 2), while fatigue is less of an issue because the weights are lighter, reducing injury risk and permitting higher volume workouts; for power-specific work, volume usually tends to be low due to the technique component, making quality work a priority.

    because smaller muscle groups and lifts with lesser load capacity (such as those that aim to isolate muscle groups) are not well suited to very high intensity work, they tend to be performed under hypertrophy-centric parameters, with the "bigger" compound lifts usable for both hypertrophy and strength work, hence things like the combination of heavy compounds (such as the 3 powerlifting competition lifts and their variants) for maximal strength, and lighter bodybuilding-type work on accessory lifts for overall development, plus joint and tendon health (as the higher rep counts increase local circulation)

    /wall of text
     
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    endurance has to do with energy systems that replenish ATP (the body's main "fuel" molecule). we have three, which all act simultaneously, but predominate at different times: oxidative (which consumes fatty acids to generate ATP), which is slow and long term, and usually predominant when not exercising (because during intense activity the energy demand is high and the rate of supply is slow from this pathway), the glycolytic pathway (which consumes carbohydrates), which dominates moderate exercise and is shorter term than the oxidative pathway (most cardio work, some strength work, and most/all hypertrophy work falls here), and the phosphagen or ATP-phosphocreatine pathway (where ATP is resynthesized on the spot from stored metabolites that run out very quickly), which is super short term and governs high intensity, low volume work, such as hogh intensity maximal strength work.

    in weight training, at any given intensity %, every person will make it to a certain number of reps before failing due to among other things insufficient ATP. this is trainable with high volume work, but it's a pain in the butt :p. increasing maximal strength will appear to increase endurance without actually doing so, because submaximal heavy poundages will take less energy to do, but below a certain intensity threshold the returns diminish massively and you need to do direct metabolic work (ie tons and tons of reps) to strengthen the glycoltic pathway (this is where things like group 2 shine).
     
  15. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I would also add in one small bit on tempo (Fish has covered much quite well). Bodybuilders tend to do concentric contractions somewhat slowly as it helps increase time under tension for hypertrophy. We require explosive contraction to be our habituated response so heavy compound and plyometrics exercises tend to be suggested for martial arts because, as Fish said, they require maximal acceleration and they recruit a bunch of muscle groups making the most of your time.

    Periodization Training for Sports by Tudor Bompa goes over in more detail how to program strength training for specific kinds of athletes in exercise selection, rep ranges, tempo, and planning around competitions. Highly recommended.
     
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    what he said!

    i do need to get around to reading that book, too...
     
  17. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Tempo work can be used for endurance purposes, a number of athletic trainers have used it effectively Joel Jamison has argued tempo training is effective in increasing the cross-sectional area of slow-twitch fibers, which makes your muscles better able to utilise oxygen as a fuel.
    Lyle McDonald whilst not agreeing with the exact reasoning has found the method also very effective
     
  18. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    As with many things the answer is... Why not both!

    I saw a really interesting endurance test/exercise which was a single pull-up with a 60 concentric and 60 eccentric. It looked hard and I may try it out down the road when my muscular endurance is improved.
     
  19. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Great question and even better responses.
     
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Both is of course the answer, but training both at the same time can be counter productive, training two different energy systems at the same time means limited gains in both in all but the beginner hence the need for periodization, or if you are a combat athlete get stronger in the gym and let the mat time build endurance specific for the sport! Just accept the fact your gains would be as good as if you just dedicated yourself to one goal
     

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