Hi, I dont know if this is the same with every school but at mine once you learn enough techniques and the form its basically imposible to fail the testings, its emmbarasing to see some of the brown belts try and run and do basic kicks, some of the black belts are pretty useless as well. I cant speak for all kuk sool won schools but i think it brings our art down a lot by letting people who obiously dont "try" in classes reach black belt level. so i just wanted to know if this is the same at other school and how you feel about it.
We're generally not allowed to test until the instructors think we can pass. As for the rest, everybody is different. Everyone has different abilities and different interests, and they come to their art for different reasons. And everyone I've seen at the black belt level does know their material, and can do it competently. I have seen standards, though tailored to age & ability. One of my training partners has had several mini-strokes, so that just memorizing a set of techniques *is* a major accomplishment. I, on the other hand, learn fast and tend to pick things up easily - and in response they expect more detail out of me. I've seen a 9-year-old black belt, who can do ~17 backflips in a row, a ~60 year old JKN who is happy with that level of accomplishment and has no intention of testing for KSN, and any number of people at various ages who can and have won championships. People come in different shapes, sizes, and fitness levels too. Another of my classmates seems to have some illness, he has a hard time making it through an entire advanced class. He's encouraged to do what he can, but when he needs to stop he stops. Perhaps you need to consider what these people are working with. Or perhaps just focus on doing *your* best - no more, no less.
I know that some people have disadvantages and i respect them for comming to class, and getting on with life rather than just giving up. But in my post i was refering to people that just dont bother trying in class. people who make up really bad excuses e.g "my toe hurts this week i cant do press ups or any thing remotely hard", and they have a different injury on there toe every week. Plus theres some people who just cant be bothered to give everything there best, but then when it comes to learning techniques they make amazing recovories and can learn 2 techniques and half there next form then they garde the next week. The people who think its a race to get to black belt, they make kuk sool won look bad and i think they should make the testings much harder to pass, while keeping in mind that some people have disabilities that should be considered when there testing.
Hmmm.... in my (admittedly limited) experience, the slackers at our school just drop out before they get to black belt. And the black belts at our school are all very competent. However, I do think you have a point in that the testing format does seem to allow people to get away with just learning the basics and going through the motions. I've been through two gradings so far, and definitely it wasn't at all hard to pass so long as you knew the motions of the techniques and the forms. Like I said though, slackers generally drop out on their own. And ember also has a good point: if someone is not ready to reach black belt, then the instructors will generally realize this and not allow the student to test. I actually think that this is the reason that KSW students spend so long at the brown-belt level. Shoddy students thrive on the illusion of motion given by belt promotions amd if you take that away from them, then not only do they not progress in terms of skill, but they also do not progress in terms of belt level. Usually this is enough to make this sort of student just go away. When I practice techniques, I get bored really quickly if my partner just taps out automatically and if we're not working to improve our performance; usually this sort of practice ends with us drifting off into conversation or finding something else to do. Bad students who reach brown belt level probably feel much the same way. Without progression, they drift off.
Don't let a few "less than stellar" students taint your image of KSW. For every not so great student (effort related aka poor etiquette) I will show you 20 who have great etiquette and spirit. There is nothing more exciting as an instructor that to have a beginning student who just "goes through the motions" until they see it longer is enough to progress. The ALL will hit that at some point. Then they either come around on the effort bandwagon, or they leave. I'm sure each of you can think of several people in school (not KSW) that made A's and B's with very little effort. That is life. Bad etiquette and bad training habits will always catch up with those who employ them. My advice (I'm just one life student speaking here) is to continue to be a positive role model for these folks. Even if they are BB's. They will not bring down the art...it is impossible. However, they can bring it down for you if you let it. Please don't. KSW has way too much to offer for those individuals who make the committment to be the best that "they can be." Keep you head up and focused on your improvement...the heck with those others. I'm glad you brought up this subject. Hopefully it will fuel your training. Seeing those who slack off actually gets me fired up to train even harder! Lead by example, lead by example, and lead by example. Keep training hard!!!
They do tend to go really easy at gradings at my school, up to brown belt. That is a little bit disappointing, but I think if you look at most martial arts, even if it's harder to get from one belt to another, I don't think the quality of students is any better. I've had experience grading in Shotokan Karate when I was little, and am currently taking Shorei Ryu Karate. They tend to nitpick on little details, like at what angle your toes are in your horse stance, or exactly how high your chamber is before you punch. On the whole, however, the actual ability of the students doesn't have to be that great. In Kuk Sool, I'd say that the students, at least in my school, are on the whole, more capable of applying what they learn, even if sometimes they're allowed to pass gradings if they're a bit sloppy. For example, Shorei Ryu Karate includes some joint locks. As a white belt you have to know two that are basically Sohn Maek Soo 2 and Sohn Maek Soo 11 (and Sohm Pae Gi #1). The brown belt that showed me these techniques wasn't even capable of getting me to feel the lock. Admittedly, I'm fairly strong, and not easy to do techniques on, but even the people that I would consider relatively poor students at my school were capable of doing much better (part of it is the fact that they do the technique in a slightly different, but IMO less effective way. When I grabbed the brown belt's wrist, she told me that my grip would make the lock less effective, when in reality it works far better, as evidenced by the fact that it took almost no effort to make her tap my way, but required considerably more pressure to get her to tap when I did it their way).
I did Shotokan Karate for a few years as well and in there gradings and only about 75% of people passed and we had to have been on a belt a certain nu,ber of months till we could grade. But i KSW i have known people to go up 3 belts in 4 months which shoundt happen, i just think that if people see a KSW display with some people who have rubbish technique, stances ect. they will think everyone in KSW is like that and think less of our art.
You're kidding! Over here you're only allowed to progress by ONE belt rank every four months, and brown belts usually stay there for at least 15-16 months, if not far longer. The average length of time before reaching blackbelt is about 4 years. So I really hope you're exaggerating, b/c if this is true, it really isn't reassuring.
this is the only time ive seen it happen but this person decided he would go to class 4 times a week so he went in for about 3 testings in a row, which i dont know how he managed as your suposed to have to leave at least one testing in between.
I have seen people test multiple months in a row, even though you're supposed to wait one in between. The first two times I saw it, the students had missed a test and this put them back on their normal every-other-month track. The third time was one of the same students, and a witness says she was ordered by KJN to test that month. The other person that I have heard (but do not know first-hand) to have often tested multiple months in a row, was also extremely good-- no halfway or lazy training there. But I see multiple testing as a separate issue from the slack-off training you mentioned first. My experience indicates that when exceptions to the test times are made, they are not for "slackers". Also, once you make DBN, there is no speeding up the testing process. There might be a make-up test offered, but four tests a year is pretty much it, and they'll promote you when they promote you. As for the regularity of training, that sounds like a whole nother thread.
We train 3/4 times a week (depending on rank), and still only test once a semester (twice a year for most people, three times if you take summers). Our practices are 1.5-2 hours, and some people (including myself) stay even longer, to get another 1-2 hours in per practice. It takes 4 years to get to blackbelt here, no matter what (and of course, the Dahn Bo Nim testing schedule is a separate thing).
I'm sure that all of that practice AZeitung shows up in your techniques, forms etc. That is what I was referring to earlier. This is clearly evident at tournament if there is a tie on a event. For example, your competition form may be Dae Geup Hyung, there is a tie between you and the other guy. The judges may say...OK, now do Ki Cho Hyung as a tie breaker. It will be very easy to see who practices everything, and the one who only practices what will be graded at tournament. Even with the hours we practice at my school...it is not enough. There is never enough practice!
I think the idea of people promoting to fast is something you'll see occasionally in just about every style. With martial arts growing as fast as they are, it's going to be impossible for the standard of quality at schools to remain equal across the board. It's just a matter of working hard yourself. At my school our instructors have no qualms about keeping a student from promoting if they're not up to snuff. In rare occasions students will promote faster, but that is usually because of a lot of extra work and previous MA experience.
Not quite true. One of the guys promoting here next week has only been studying for 3 years. Of course, he lives here, so he always comes to summer practice and is an exception rather than a rule, but I just thought I'd throw that in here.
Who is that? BTW, Tim lived there, too, and studied every summer (as far as I know), but it still took him four years to get to black belt.
Promoting In our school, there is a few simple rules to keep someone from advancing 'too quick'. First: You can't test two months in a row. Even though you may know what is required for your next test by the next month, you still have to wait. Second: To test for the next belt level, you must have at least 30 practices in at your current belt. As long as they stick to that then it will take about 3.5 years at best to make it to black belt. Like lots of others have stated, you spend a long time at brown belt and dahn bo nihm prior to reaching black belt. I do have a problem, however, with the rumors I hear about Kuk Sa Nim not passing anyone on their first try for black belt. If you have the techniques and forms down, and you meet all other requirements then you shouldn't be denied on principle of failure the first time no matter what.
This was my take on it while I was testing. It wasn't so much that I 'failed' the first time around. It's that I was required to take at least 6 tests between brown and black and 2 of them had to be in front of Kuk Sa Nim. Also, I didn't know all my techniques the first time around. You're not required to know everything up through Dahn Do Maki to take your first test. You just have to have to be Dahn Bo Nim.
My school won't even teach Gum Mool Hyung until you've done your first black belt test, and you make Dan Bo Nym with Kwan Juhl Ki, so the chances of knowing everything before your first black belt test are slim-to-none. I'm told it takes an average of 3-5 years to make black belt, depending in part on consistency of practice and mastery of the material. I've also found that I've learned something each time I've tested.
How does your school do technique follow-through and weapons training? I've heard that one of the nearby schools has students fall for techniques from the beginning. Our school only usually works that portion of the techniques for colored belts near tournament. Otherwise, you'd have to have made it to the advanced classes (brown belt +) to learn all the falls and follow-throughs. You've said it takes 4 years, that's about the same for us. I wonder if some of it could be this difference; that you're training the techniques and forms in greater detail at the colored belt levels, and spending less time at brown belt / dan bo nym levels.
We will start falls/takedowns from the very beginning but don't always do falls when practicing techniques. It is just as important (if not more) to know how to fall properly when a technique is done on you than doing the technique itself. Anyone who has had to work with someone who does not know how to fall will understand this. It's not just a functional issue but a safety one too. We may do techniques with falls one week and do Nak Bub by itself the following week. We just change it up for variety purposes. As far as weapons, we try to spend a minimum of 30 minutes a week in practice. Outside practice is a must if one wants to become very skilled in staff or sword. The only way to get better at staff spins is to spin your staff. A lot of that can be done at home once you have been taught the skill. Someone who can go through all of there spins with 30-50 spins each or someone who can perform all 5 sword meditations 200 times each, will be much more likely to demonstrate command of that weapon.
