Traditional Boxing

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Sep 20, 2004.

  1. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter


    The Cross-Guard evolved as a method to protect both the head and the abdomen, often catching your opponents unprotected knuckles on the point of your elbow.

    Usually it could be followed by a backfist, hitting with the two largest knuckles... "If struck with force on the bridge of the nose, it splits it in two parts, from the top to the bottom."
     

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  2. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    The Extended Guard

    The familiar Extended Arms posture evolved at a time when grappling dominated boxing, the extended lead arm helped to maintain distance between opponents preventing a grappler from rushing in....

    Louie
     

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  3. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Guards

    Boxing Guards where not fixed but fluid, fighters often switched guards and stance, fighting in both right lead and left. As boxing became more popular the fighters guard often became his trademark...

    Louie
     

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  4. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    I've tried some of the traditional boxing stance on the heavy bag (bare handed) , and its preety practical and great for the knuckes. It hurt a lot less than the stance we use today + the skin tore a lot less too.
     
  5. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Guards

    James Figg, often hailed as the father of boxing, can be seen posing in this illustration using a suprisingly 'modern' looking guard.
    Figg trained & fought 'rounds' with both weapons and fists in a brutal career which began in the early 1700's, he never lost a fight and was considered to be the champion of Great Britain until he retired in 1730.

    Louie
     

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  6. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Mendoza allso has the elbow-raising-position. It is interpreted by students of Mendoza that I know about (they were apparently in Dijon where my "mentor"; Colin Richards picked it up) that it could allso be used to protect the side of the head (temple and ear + side of the neck) as well as having the possebility to smash an approaching fist towards the face with the elbow.
     
  7. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Stolenbjorn...

    Yes, I learned this technique at a JKD Krause seminar back in the early '90's and have used it ever since...

    It is described in an 1825 boxing manual with regards to Mendoza....
    "If you are struck at either side of the face, you may successfully raise up your elbow, catch the blow upon it"

    Louie
     
  8. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    AAAHH!!! We do those moves in Wing Chun. The first one, my old sifu called it 'a cowards move' not because of its nature, but because of the way you can shy away from a strike looking quite defensively, but shooting straight back with a hammer strike to tample/nose, or backfist!!

    Louie, what knuckles did they used to strike with?
     
  9. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Punching

    Hi Wcrevdonner...

    Large top two were recommended rather than the smaller two used in WC.

    Jab & Cross punches were delivered with a vertical fist, again similar to WC.

    They had adopted the fencing concept of the straight thrust being more efficient than the round or hooking blows which brought about the term 'Scientific Method' into boxing training.

    This illustration from a 1674 Dutch manual captures the vertical fist straight punch together with a foot trap.


    Louie
     

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  10. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Punching

    Boxing's Pivot Blow was similar to the spinning backfist found in many oriental systems. The blow could be landed with the fist, forearm or elbow depending on the distance between the fighters.....

    Louie
     

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  11. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Punching

    In this Photo Champion pugilist Bob Fitzsimmons demonstrates a Pivot Blow using the elbow.....

    Louie
     

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  12. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Punching

    In the earliest period of boxing the Elbow would also have been used in what we today normally regard as a Thai Boxing technique, smashing into the face!

    This illustration comes from a 1659 wrestling manual....

    Louie
     

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  13. Rob Lovett

    Rob Lovett Valued Member

    Hi Guys,

    We held an open day a year or so ago where we invited various people from different backgrounds. The Linacre School of Defence, who were the bunch that were at Dijon, were showing the work that they have been doing with early boxing texts and several were shocked at the similarity between it and wing chun.
    The guys from LSD work mainly from Mendoza and Broughton and from Terry Brown's work.
    Earlier this year we challenged the guys from the LSD to a friendly bout, we use an earlier unarmed methodology and system from Fiore which while having striking tends to move quickly to the grapple. It was interesting to see how difficult it was to close upon the guard that the LSD boys were employing, especially since they were fighting very much from the back foot.


    Louie, I have not seen any particular recommendation of the use of the vertical or horizontal fist but rather a fairly even smattering of both depending on how the arm is positioned. For instance, if striking from a hands in front position the horizontal fist is more natural, where as striking from a cover with the elbow low a vertical fist seems to fit better. Have you seen anywhere wehere there is any sort of recommendation of this?

    Regards
    Rob
     
  14. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Rob,

    This thread is 'work in progress' at the moment with the punches you mention being added as I get illustrations to cover them. For the vertical fist I have based this from the illustrations in 'Art & Practice of Boxing' 'Spalding's Athletic Library, Boxing' and of course Petter's illustration, I have also based it on discussions within the Classicalpugilism site and the research work of Ken Pfrenger.
    I also hope to cover the 45 degree punch, the horizontal punch, the chopper, etc ;)

    Louie
     
  15. Rob Lovett

    Rob Lovett Valued Member

    Hi Louie,

    I understand :). Everything that we do as a community is a work in progress :).

    Take care and keep me updated on how it is going.

    Is the Classicpugilist another of Ken's Yahoo Groups?

    Regards
    Rob
     
  16. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    The Boxer's Training...

    Part of the boxers training included the use of weapons including swords, bucklers, daggers, sticks and in the illustration below, Quarterstaff.

    During the earlist Prize-Fights the 'boxers' agreed on which weapons would be used during the rounds. On the 6th of June 1727, Figg fought the Gravesend pipe-maker, Ned Sutton. The first round was with swords, the second round was fist-fighting which included throws and grappling, while the third round was with cudgels during which Figg shattered Sutton's knee to win the match.

    Louie
     

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  17. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    PUNCHES: The Chopper!!!

    Another 'punch' which was banned when boxing developed into a sport was the CHOPPER, it was similar to a backfist hitting with the large two knuckles... or as in the attatched photo, like a hammer-fist technique!

    Louie
     

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  18. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Boxing's Grappling

    Boxing was vastly different from the boxing we see today. Along with hitting with the fists, a boxer could gouge, bite, headbutt and grapple his opponent (a 'cross-buttock' throw being the favourite) and hit him when he was down.

    Louie
     

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  19. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    Excellent info Louie, keep it coming...
     
  20. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    In the photo he's hitting with the 2 last (small) knuckles right ?
     

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