how to get someone to move/leave?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by aikiMac, Apr 11, 2017.

  1. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    You've probably heard about the incident on a United Airlines plane where a man was dragged (literally) off the airplane because he wouldn't leave voluntarily. For the sake of my question, let's just assume that the airline had the legal right to get him off the plane, and let's just assume that police officers did it. [That is what all of the news reports I've heard thus far unanimously say, anyway.]

    My question is -- coming from a martial artist point of view -- how should he have been taken off the plane? Physically, how should Mr. Leo get an uncooperative person out of his chair and down the aisle? I'm primarily thinking martial arts movements, grips, levers, where to squeeze, etc. -- the physical side of physically making an uncooperative body move your way. But of course verbal tone and a man-in-charge attitude are factors, too.

    Ideas? Particularly from our cop friends? :dunno:
     
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    This thread seems in poor taste; I don't see the difference between this and "were we to assume that Garner was in the wrong, what would be the best way to choke him?" Poor form.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I would of offered everyone more more money, to volunteer, as

    a) They make more then that by overselling every flight

    b) the resultant fall out from the incident has cost them far more in PR and stock losses then the few thousand dollars it would cost for volenteers.

    3) everyone has their price.

    This is simply a result of bad practises mixed with bad local management.
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    (a) They weren't Police - at all - they were security guards

    (b) There is no secret to moving someone and the same rules of escalation vs necessity apply

    Anyone who is sitting down and refusing to move is classified as a "passive resistor" - i.e. they are not complying with a given direction but are not doing anything to actively go against it (ie fighting, struggling etc...)

    At the lowest level communication is key, and to be honest is something that is continually needed to be revisited and assessed throughout such an encounter; any escalation to a higher level UoF does not necessarily mean the encounter has to remain there - Verbal Judo call it "5 step" amongst other things...

    When I was called in to resolve something the first thing i do is slow it down - there is no rush (and in many cases that that itself makes a verbal resolution much easier since that becomes a point of bargaining). Going hands on should always be a last resort, or of a threat becomes imminent or apparent.
     
  5. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    A simple finger lock is a low UoF and can be quite subtle

    but in this case the sledgehammer was unnecessary .....as suggested everyone has their price ...
     
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    As to removing someone, it's as simple as pick them up and walk off.

    Although UA should have just kept raising the price they were willing to pay until someone gave up their seat volentarily. I hope they get sued for MILLIONS.
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    If they had offered 1350 (their maximum) 4 people would have gone instantly
     
  8. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    Did the guy take any legal actions?

    I would guess that he can get a lot of their money for what they did to him.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Not yet but he will I warrant
     
  10. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    In London if a passenger on a bus is asked to leave and the passenger refuses they park the bus, open the doors, and announce that the bus is not going anywhere until the passenger leaves. This is very annoying for other passengers but very effective at getting the person to leave in a nonviolent way.




    Mod Edit: I added spaces for you, so we can read your post. I did not change your words.
    (But also, this isn't what I asked.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    That's not what I asked.


    But would the finger break?

    I was thinking/visualizing perhaps the "gooseneck" wrist lock might work from that direction. But I've never tried it from this direction, so I'm not certain the lock would stay on.

    Sankyo was my other idea.

    No, man, that's like saying boxing is as simple as punching the other guy really hard. No.

    That's my first instinct, too -- just chill, and observe, and talk. But ... when you do have to touch me ... how are you going to make me get out of my chair? :thinking:

    The angle is all different than I've ever practiced before. We never put a chair on mat of my dojo, and practiced wrist locks from that direction.
     
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Pain compliance technique (eg philtrum), when they move a hand to get it away take it. Finger locks are absolutely great here (assuming you know how to apply them).

    People will typically "follow the pain" - I have extracted from vehicles, trains and bar booths using similar tactics
     
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The man was passively resisting. Which I understand to be a limp body. Just pick him up and carry him off. It's not really grappling. Just like punching someone who isn't defending isn't boxing.
     
  14. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Ooooh, I had completely forgot about that. Guy did it to me at a seminar, for demo purpose. I remember that I did not like it!


    Really? I'd be worried about breaking his finger until he's standing -- worried that while he's trying to be good and extract himself so as to relieve the pain and comply, pop, it breaks early. No?


    Fair enough. I was more thinking of a non-cooperative guy, someone who doesn't want to get up.

    For this specific news story, my understanding from the radio report as I drove to work today was that he struggled until he got his head cut open on an arm rest. The fact that he got his head even bonked on arm rest, let alone cut open, is what got me thinking about the martial arts side. I consider it a complete failure by the security guards, and I want to believe that I could have done better; hence, the questioning of "how?"
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  16. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I didn't mean to equate lock with break (in aikido we lock but never break), but it is refreshing to know that my fingers are durable. :) Thanks.

    "Insane Dance of Pain" -- LOL, love the title of that video! :D

    At 1:06 -- that's the sankyo I originally had in mind. I believe it will work on a seated person, and in the narrow space of an aisle.

    1:28-1:34 -- I thought of that one, too, for after the other guy is on his feet, but I don't think an airplane aisle is wide enough.

    2:04 -- Oooh, I like! :happy:
     
  17. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    The not dealing with this before boarding → stupid
    The not offering maximum amount of money → stupid
    The removal due to overbooking → legal
    The way they dragged him out → less than spectacular
    Chances United is really going to pay for this → pretty good

    I'm not a big fan of pain compliance techniques, I always prefer simple mechanical advantage. That said getting someone out of a seat in a cramped space like that is difficult. I've always been a fan of hammerlocks and goose necks for that purpose if I can get the arm and apply them. Since there were three of them and he was passively resisting I see no good reason they couldn't have simply grabbed legs and shoulders and carried him out like a sack of potatoes.
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Except this WASN'T an overbooked flight - this was United trying to get some employees of theirs moved so that legislation doesn't apply and they will probably get sued massively off the back of this

    Similarly when you are asked to volunteer to give up your seat and you say "no" that's the end of it - Physical action to extract someone who was given a CHOICE is not going to be legally grounded especially given they have not even offered the maximum amount yet or even asked if anyone else will surrender their seat
     
  19. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Ya, the radio report this morning said he was bleeding from getting his head knocked. Certainly, certainly, cutting the guy's head open is "excessive force" -- but that's exactly what got me thinking about the question of how to get someone out of a chair and down a narrow aisle. Without blood.

    The radio report this morning, when I was driving to work, said UA wanted 4 seats, and 2 people (traveling together) responded to the call for volunteers when the price was raised to $800 each. But, yes, I've read internet news articles saying no volunteers stepped up. :dunno: Gotta hate it when news reports are inconsistent.
     
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    That first bit I hadn't heard about. And yeah, given the amount of options they hadn't yet used, they're probably going to eat it HARD on this, and well they should.
     

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