Hello all, I have been looking at starting a Martial Art, The clubs I have spoken to have all pretty much said the same thing, 'we are a complete self defence system'. Though I find a lot of the demonstrations unrealistic and false. How many of you guys have been in a real street fight? Or witnessed one? What actually happens? Are weapons used? Does it go to the ground? Are locks and break away techniques beneficial? Which techniques are useful/un-useful. I know any Martial Art will be beneficial, but I would just like to hear your thoughts. Thanks for now M.P
Welcome to MAP. In the UK weapon attacks are rare and in fact so is the chance of having to defend yourself. There are very few self defence only schools in the UK and although their techniques may be useful in a SD situation, they are only any good at the point of contact. Good SD starts before the attack begins and this sadly is where most classes fall down. My suggestion would be to try out a few local schools, see what suits you and build from there. What area are you in and what takes your fancy. We'll have someone who can make recommendations.
Never been in one, but seen/been called to quite a few. I have far less experience than many here though. Hardly ever 1 on 1, and it's either handbags at 10 paces - posturing, shoving and a few ineffectual punches, or several on one/several on several with full strength wild haymakers and shirt grabbing and then throwing. Big kicks too. When someone ends up on the floor, they tend to get a kicking too from a few people at once. I've never seen a weapon such as a knife used, but seen how a glass or bottle will truly ruin your day. Glassing seem to be a weapon of choice if not using limbs, and really make a mess. Fights are always messy/scrappy. Gross motor skill stuff. We are taught a few locks and joint manipulation, but it's rarely used like that 'in real life'. Try applying a wrist or thumb lock on someone hell bent on hitting you or someone else. Biggest group usually wins. Saying that, I've seen one boxer take 3 guys apart and come away having hardly been touched. Find something you enjoy and do that. Try not to worry too much about the SD aspect. If you're getting into fights all the time, maybe socialise somewhere else! Saying that, I keep hear boxing and judo are a rather good combination if you end up in a ruck
I've been lucky enough to avoid fighting "on the street" but I've seen a few pub fights and they usually just involve two guys shouting "the F word" at each other at the top of their lungs and swinging punches at each others' heads until one falls over. The only time it "goes to the ground" is if they collapse in a lump and continue trying to hit each other or grab a scarf hold. I have never seen any of the following in a scrap: -guarding or parrying -"takedowns" in the sense of the BJJ style morote gari -limb locks of any kind -people's friends getting involved except to separate the fighters Now, I've never lived in one of those scary urban crime hotspots, so things might be different if you do, but all the scraps I've seen have followed that basic formula.
I've been in one, seen a couple. Weapons don't tend to come out really, and if they do come out, the other party will pull out his/her/their own weapon or run away. Of the ones I've seen, two have gone to ground the others didn't. Mine didn't. When they do go to ground, if there is a group, stomping and kicking the person(s) on the ground happens all the time. Joint manipulation rarely works, unless 1 v 1, but sprawls are good. People normally throw big haymakers or heavy crosses. Knowing how to bob and weave will save you a lot of effort, and I've found their stances don't tend to protect their legs from kicks so if you have a good leg kick, those can work. I forgot to add, a couple fights I've been in/seen happen are rugby ones, but they aren't necessarily street fights, they are in a sense pretty tame. Just two teams of massive gentlemen with a couple clinching and grabbing each other's jerseys and throwing big punches at each other. Whoevers' chins are the strongest wins, or until the peacemakers on each team + the ref can break them up.
...Been in a real street fight? I have had more than my fair share of 'Real' fights (just 1 is too many), a couple of which have been quite nasty, but most of which were nothing more than a 'Scuffle'. From a Self protection perspective though, I have either avoided, or been fortunate to have excused myself from more harmful situations than I have ever been a part of, which I attribute to awareness. Or witnessed one? As with most of the responses above, I too have witnessed endless displays of the 'Monkey Dance', which really is often nothing more than a couple of guys beating their chest, in an attempt show a display of dominance. Are weapons used? An attack with what a person may consider a traditional weapon, Knife, Bat etc... has to date never presented itself, in any of the situations I have either witnessed, or been a part of. Environmental weapons, Bottles, Glasses, Pool balls, Traffic cone etc... (I have even witnessed a very drunk lad, pelting urinal cakes at some poor fella, that was curled up in the corner of the toilets!!!) are far more prevalent, and far harder to 'see coming' as they are already common place to the situation. Does it go to the ground? More often than not in my experience, especially between 'unskilled' fighters, but as Moosey has already stated, this usually comes about when 'going to guns' (stand up striking) has been ineffective, resulting in a messy, grabby clinch, ending up in a heaped pile on the ground - No finesse, no take downs, just the course of the fight... Are locks and break away techniques beneficial? Locks I would say NO, as they require finer motor skills, which under the effects of an adrenaline dump, are less likely to be achieved. As for breakaway away techniques, it is hard to say, but if somebody had hold of me, I'd be less concerned with getting the hand off me, than I would be with what they were planning to do with their 'Free' hand/limbs. Which techniques are useful/un-useful? Anything that comes about easily, relying on large motor skills, that is more natural reaction, than a choice of action, if that makes sense? Regards, Travess
I agree with almost everything you have said based on my own experiences and studies. However, I know that I have been able to use joint manipulation with some degree of success on a regular basis. I believe the key though is in your training, self control and experience. If it isn't second nature(no thought just action/reaction) it isn't happening. Each technique has an origin and context of use just like words in a language and no technique is 100% effective 100% of the time. Also, fights and self defense situations have an entire spectrum of intensity levels. From an unwanted touch to an all out brawl.
The unrelenting aggression always takes me aback. When people start swinging, it doesn't tend to be a back and forth of stylish blocks and counters, it tends to be one guy taking the initiative and swinging for the fences until he either knocks the other guy down or the other guy does the same. It's pretty intimidating when you're the other guy and no matter how fast you backpedal, the git is still in your face. Being able to deal with that berzerker attack (which I've never seen simulated in any martial arts class) and the adrenaline dump that comes with it is probably 80% of dealing with those situations properly. The other 20% is technique and cardio - because you do not want to be the guy who gets tired first.
Holyhead had mentioned something - how very difficult it is to successfully defend oneself from unrelenting berzerker attacks - and the fact that these are never adequately simulated, if they are dealt with at all, in MA classes (I'm assuming he's meaning 'serious' SD classes such as Krav, etc) Do LE classes simulate these kinds of attacks and if so...what can be learned?
I've been in some fights as a high school kid and later. It's better to avoid them. I've been training TKD for three years at that time and some self defence. Once some bullies entered the class to extort money from my friend. I stood up for him and got involved in fight with them. One on one. It went quite well until one of them pull out a gun. After that I took some hits and threatening with gun pointed at me. Soon after that they run out of our school. Later on a court they said it was a plastic gun but I at that time could't say if it was real or plastic because I was shocked, 16 year old at that time. When he pulled out a gun in a class I thought of some techniques for self defence. But then starting to consider what would happen if some stray bullet hit some of my schoolmates. So I just froze and waited to all end.
I couldn't agree with you more, at least from a contextual standpoint (and again, from personal experiences and expectations) as although we do cover a fair amount of control, escape and ground fighting in my system, it is admittedly an area I feel I operate in at around only 70% - and that is in a 'sterile' Dojo environment, so once you throw in the adrenalin dump, the unknown external factors and the high intensity of a 'Brawl' situation, it certainly wouldn't be my go to game. That being said though, I was previously involved in a discussion in another thread, where in we touched on the best ways to deal with / subdue a 'Drunkle' (Drunk Uncle) or similar 'Character' and in that situation - lower(er) threat, lower(er) intesity, - where you are less likely to want to try and bang the guy out, I probably would go down the Lock / Restraint road.... Kind Regards, Travess
These aren't simulated in classes. We are taught a few compliant techniques. Very basic stuff over a couple of days. I've raised the point a few times that training is possibly not up to scratch, but it's always down to time and budgets...
I have been in some, seen some and avoided some. One multiple ,non with weapons but watched one guy use a knuckle duster and once had someone threaten me with a tree branch after we had an encounter. I just stayed away until he calmed down and went. I don't think it's about technique because you do whatever needs doing at that moment, it's more about intensity and continuously doing whAt ever needs doing until it's over. Nothings clean or technicAl in a looking good type of way. You have to ad lib within the time frame of chaos.....so it's anything that can be effectively used within those time frames....these are normally things based on fundamental human movements, so you have to refine these movements. These movements are mostly found within competitive sports. Train sport, think street as the saying goes.
