Are you allowed to cross train?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Simon, Dec 18, 2014.

  1. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    My dojo holds kumite clinics several times a year. This means practice with students of different styles and opponents one's never faced before. There's no reason to discourage cross-training of any sort. Knowledge is power. Discouraging or disallowing cross-training smacks of insecurity to me. (My sensei had several instructors in all the arts he teaches as well.)
     
  2. narcsarge

    narcsarge Masticated Whey

    I don't know the particular "politics" you have to deal with Simon but I have seen, and know, instructors who won't take students from certain other schools because of politics. I have heard schools won't attend a tournament if school "A" is going. Bollocks to it all. My idea of martial arts is to continue learning and trying different things. My current instructor almost insists on us trying different arts/forms/styles. He will even bring in instructors from other disciplines to give his students "something to think about".

    I could never be happy if I trained under someone that would be upset if I tried other arts or styles or traveled to, oh.... say the U.K., get beat up by you! :)
     
  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    My school has no such ban in general. But I do think it is encouraged to let your instructor know. But that just might be me reading my approach into things. It makes sense that an instructor should know about other training. for example: if you mix boxing style hits into your CLF form during a lesson, they would know what is going on and why.

    I know my Sifu and all the instructors I know believe in testing one's skills against others in tournaments, even tournaments in other styles. Is that cross training in a way? My Sifu used to travel with another Sifu across the country and enter all sorts of tournaments in various styles to test out what they knew and learn.

    Instructors and students used to do some local pankration tournaments until that tournament got put out of business with legal mumbo jumbo.

    I know another student that also did Wing Chun. No one seemed to mind that. But she would practice her WC in our school (forms) and I think she told me was asked to stop doing that. That seemed reasonable. Kids would ask her about it and she would start talking about her other school in our school-basically sort of advertising another school in ours. Which seemed kind of rude to me. (Not intentionally though, she is a cool peson.)

    Now I am going to go against the flow here. I can see some reasonable reasons why an instructor might not want someone to cross train at certain times in their training. Someone might want a new student to get the basics in their art down first before confusing it with another art. So they might encourage not cross training right away.

    Not cross training so much, but sort of related. My instructor has stronlgy encouragedsome of her teen students to not do school or extra curricular sports when getting ready for high level tests. Her reason? They needed that time to focus all their time on getting the skills necessary to have a good test. If one is divided too much, they won't have enough time to devote to achieving the necessary level of skill before a test. After achieving the passing of the test, she was fine with them going back to those other sports.

    She let me know she thought I needed to stop most of my CLF training to focus on a high level Tai Chi Chuan test. She told me she wouldn't tell me I couldn't, but that she REALLY thought I needed to put all my time into practicing for this test. And I still spar, stick fight, and do a couple of things with her full approval, But I cut way down on my CLF practice. And although I did it very reluctantly, she was right. I need this time to really focus on the one goal. But it is temporary.

    This is my instructor's view only. As in, this was not her carrying out some wider school policy. I know some other isntructors do not feel the same way. But then again, my instructor has gotten several students to black sash, which is actually a rarity in my school. I think she knows the level of devotion it takes.

    So, I could see some instructor not wanting someone to cross train in another art for a similar reason. But that would just be for a limited time span.

    BTW, I went to some meetup group to practice push hands with people from other schools and TCC styles. I had her and my Sifu's full approval. It was no issue whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  4. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    My instructor occasionally feels offended when his students go to school to learn something we teach exactly the same. If it is a totally different concept or idea, or even just a different branch of Kajukenbo, my instructor is totally fine with that. His view was that "if somebody else has something they can offer you that I can't teach you, go for it." He does prefer that we run it by him first, not that he would say no, just out of respect and letting him know what we will be doing. He encourages cross training for many of his students. His son, in addition to Kajukenbo took Muay Thai until he tore his ACL playing American football. Another one of his students takes BJJ at a nearby school. He encourages me to take TKD as soon as I get a car over at university because it would help me expand my skillset in kicking, rather than just me having my roundhouse kick.

    The only problem is if, like others have said, the other school attempts to poach students. Besides that, all is well in the world.
     
  5. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    When I went to that meetup group to practice with others, it was a good experience. However, no disrespect to those others there and their teachers. But it only confirmed to me the high quality of my school's teachings. Some basic things that they didn't know and should have been taught..............
    Training with others only confirmed to me how very good my school is.

    I do want to enter a tournament and test my push hands with people outside my Federation and see how it goes. And I know my instructor would approve. Well, AFTER this test anyways.
     
  6. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, everyone can go after the same clients, and I agee that it is the job of the supplier to offer a product that keeps one loyal.

    However, businesses don't go INTO another rival business and advertise within the competitor's building.

    Think about this in relation to the subject, does MAP allow people to post links to other sites within MAP? You know the answer. MAP often doesn't allow this because it is said that we aren't here to generate traffic for other sites.

    If this was the concern, I think the instructor had some right to feel the way he did.

    You are new at that place right? Not enough time for him to know you and your intentions perhaps? Maybe you weren't there enough to "post that small link in your signature once you get enough posts?"

    There is a difference between an instructor getting upset about students practicing together vs someone using a school to get students to come to them. It sounds like you just wanting to practice might have been misunderstood. Maybe you should go get coffee, or tea, or a beer with the guy and talk it out. Make sure you both understand where each other is coming from before making any decsions to quit or not. Maybe the guy was just upset and if you talk it out you will find he didn't mean he was dead against his students cross training ever. People say things when upset they don't mean.

    P.s. If I ever was in England and got an offer to learn from you, I would jump at the chance. And I am sure my instructor and Sifu would encourage it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  7. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    I'm personally of the opinion that a teacher has no right to tell a student what they can or cannot do with their lives. Any teacher that does this has insecurity issues, or a hidden agenda.

    Advertising yourself as an instructor within their school without their approval is kind of a no no though. If you're friendly with them in social media sites it's generally best to be careful how you advertise it there aswell. Some people can be really funny about that sort of thing, as you well know.

    I'm not going into depth over my own experiences publicly here as it would be unprofessional. I went through a really hard time because of related issues and just want to put it behind me. But if you ever need a chat about it privately feel free to get in touch.
     
  8. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Think he was just upset you didn't invite him too? Dude might be lonely.
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    What I find odd is that if this instructor is who I think he is he sure as hell cross trained himself to get where he is today.
    So is this a case of do as I say but not as I do?
     
  10. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I encourage my students to go out and train with other people. I do this for several reasons. I have a certain skill set. I am good at what i am good at. I am not good at what I am not good at. other instructors, other classes, other people have different skill sets. I want my students to have a rounded experience in marital arts.

    We generally have a free form sparing / technique session at the end of each class. in this session the students may use any techniques they wish, from any art. I have only one proviso - no surprises that can injure a training partner.

    I would not encourage beginners to cross train however as their are some particular things we do in training that appear at first to be at odds to other arts. e.g we start off by standing square to the opponent rather than in a boxing side on stance. This can be confusing for beginners and can slow down their progress at the start. Later on however seeing how other arts do things differently is very helpful because it can helps to challenge assumptions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I would have no worries about a student inviting other students to cross train. I might have issues with a teaching assistant doing so because of complications with insurance.
    The club might be on the hook for compensation If student were injured in a cross training session organised by a person with formal standing in the club. But the insurance would not necessarily cover it. When I recommend students to train outside the club I remind them that they do so at their own risk and that they are not covered by the clubs insurance.
     
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yup
     
  13. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I love it when my folks cross-train. Heck, I got one of the guys at my club to come do judo with me.

    I did have an instructor back in the day who didn't even want his students training with each other outside of class time, nor interpreting the old European manuals. He said to me "to do that, you need really special people, and you don't have that". Nonsense IMO. When you're only teaching one class a week, there's no way your students will improve without a lot of training on their own.

    When I changed clubs, this person also went out of his way to disparage my new club and the people in it so his people wouldn't cross-train there. Guess which club I learned more at.

    -Mark
     
  14. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    I forget to mention that my other post in this topic.

    My JJ teacher even went a step further: When I was supposed to face my first belt test in Hapkido, he not only allowed to me train for it during the last week in his (JJ-)class (probably was the first and last time I did that; as fine as he was with it, as bad I felt afterwards :D ), he even came around and helped me with a few details.
    And spotted a mistake my HKD-coaches never realized (which was weird, really :eek: )

    Shame I got disqualified from the test ten minutes prior to it.
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Sounds like a tale worth sharing....:)
     
  16. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    Not really. It's actually rather boring lol

    According to my coach I would have passed easily. For sure.
    And I kind of agree. My throws weren't as good as I'd liked them to be, but the rest should really have been easy.
    Certainly not perfect, but for a first test it should have been enough.
    (After nearly one and half year of training, I actually dare to say that. It would have been the white-yellow-belt so to speak; hard not to pass that. And I don't say stuff like that easily. I still have discussion with my JJ teacher, because I'm unsure if he was right to promote me to yellow ;) )

    The problem was: I have a test anxiety.

    And I got so nervous, that I hardly could do a proper warm-up for myself (which is a problem in the first place: I still have some blockades when it comes to that ;) ), so the teacher went: Well, you're nervous, you're not warming up properly. Get off the mats.
    I tried telling him, that I could do the test without warming-up (besides, I was warm enough due to the test anxiety ;) ), but he wouldn't allow it.

    (The JJ teacher was more like: Come on the mats. Now.
    Then he came to me and dragged me on the mats :D
    I passed with a very good grade apparently, despite test anxiety. So I think, I would have passed the HKD test as well. I had over a year more time for preparation compared to the JJ test, which was more difficult.)
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I read through the thread and think I can see the issue - this is what I am reading... you have been attending class under this instructor but are not an instructor/assistant instructor under him. At the end of class, you offered his students the chance to come train with you in your own material, not what they teach st the school. Is that correct (I was unsure of your relationship to the instructor).

    If that's the case, then great motives aside, you were out of line. The instructor should worry about his students, not just from a money point of view, but also from a safety point of view. You really should have ran it by him and see if he minded you offering. That way you could have assured him that you were teaching proper material, that his students would be OK, and that you weren't trying to poach his students.

    That said, if the instructor is smart and if you can smooth this out, everyone can benefit by sharing.


    Yes, yes, and yes - it's highly encouraged and often he comes along.


    Yes. We normally recommend that students train with us for a while to get 'the basics' before jumping in elsewhere though. If students come to us looking for advice, we generally can hook them up with other (good) schools we know and provide them with an introduction. We have a good relationship with most of the other schools and most instructors will waive mat fees if you are enrolled elsewhere (unless you start coming 'all the time'... you may be asked to enroll).

    As a TKD instructor, I encourage students who want to train hard sparring to cross training in MMA (or anything else)... just to provide another view and rule set.



    Well.... if you like the school and training, it might be worth staying.

    Is this something you can talk to your instructor about, alleiviate his fears, and turn this into an opportunity for his students.

    It isn't about you wanting to steal his students or show that his teachings are crap, is it? If it is, you should leave. If it isn't, you may be able to show that and create a better situation.

    All the best
     
  18. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    All of the schools I have been to have had no issue with it. My Shorin Ryu school has many instructor level students who have trained in other styles (my main instructor is ranked in Jodo and Iaido, for example), and we are encouraged to train in areas that interest us (say Aikido/HKD if we want to get better at joint locks and some throws, or BJJ for groudwork) since there are areas that we only have a minimal focus on in class (or none at all, in the case of Iaido/Jodo/Kendo).

    My Aikido school many of the students cross train - Pencak Silat and Jujitsu are offered at the same location, and cross training leads to better skills over all (Silat for your striking component, for example).
     
  19. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    I have zero tolerance for this as well.

    I train regularly with people from different systems and want all my students in IRT to experience the same. If someone finds some thing or some one that they enjoy working out with that will keep them training in the martial ways then that is great. This kind of staking out a student as territory just strikes me as insecure and pathetic!
     
  20. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    I believe it should be actively encouraged for the more experienced.

    That being said, a lot of politics happen between certain schools and this can cause problems; if you are at a school that encouraged cross training, but had a lot of political issues with every other martial art school then the words and not meeting with the actions.

    As a teacher, I used to encourage it all the time, and even suggest places for particular areas that would help, based on other schools/people who were receptive to it.

    It is a mutual benefit, and all schools should seek to set aside their competitive politics for the sake of the long term value to the club and it's students.
     

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