[Japan] History

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by JHughes, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    I need help with some history of japanese martial arts history this is.........

    what is the first japanese martial art? :confused:

    how did other martial arts develop from this art? :confused:

    i know this thread has probally been done loads of times but I never really had a chance to see it so could anyone give me hand with this.
     
  2. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Wow...
    Nice start, hardest questions first and all that...
    As for the question, well.. As far as I can tell;

    1) The first "martial art" in Japan seems to have been some form of wrestling...Sumo was recorded as being used in the Kojiki (One of the oldest histories of Japan) during the time of the Gods (Sometime before 600 CE one might guess..). So, some form of unarmed or lightly armed wrestling... Probably.

    2) The problem here is that there is no steady line of recorded documentation...Rumours abound, but do nothing to sure up certainty..
    One could guess that from basic wrestling designed to get soldiers better trained for battle, the pace developed with the design and use of different weapons, starting with something like the Hoko, the older versions of spears and Naginata as well as swords and archery and that slowly, over a long period of time these things began to be taught rather more methodically using kata to teach basic forms...However, all of this is only a fair supposition as there is little proof either way up until about the mid-Muromachi period.

    As an extra here, Japanese martial arts exist in a wide variety of colours, and although the oldest extant art is the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (A sogo bujutsu, but one based on the sword), other arts can reasonably be assumed to have existed in some form or other...
    The Shinto Ryu draws it's lines back to something called the "Kashima no Tachi" or the "Sword of Kashima" and although no longer extant it could be assumed that this revolved around basic usage of the sword in combat..But we can't be sure.
    Impossible question to be sure about, but perhaps something along those lines would be my guess..
    Regards.
     
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I would recommend Draeger's Three volume the martial arts and ways of japan.Weatherhill books.

    regards koyo
     
  4. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    I thought about this when someone told me that jujitsu was japan's traditional martial art then some else told me that the first japanese martial arts were from china.

    but trying to stay on the topic here. ( :topic: )
     
  5. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    What you're asking for is impossible to answer. I would imagine that the first Japanese martial art was "smack the other fellow with a large stick and grunt at him", which was handed down through family lines until humans began to develop language, at which point other arts such as "throw a rock and run" were added since people could actually discuss these things by then. :D

    Yeah, I know that was terribly sarcastic, but I hope it proved my point. No matter how far back you go, there's still something behind it. A lot of people look at the martial arts as somehow spontaneously igniting into being. However, they are based upon things that preceded them ... always. You can't point to one art and say "here's the beginning", since it was inevitably based upon something older, all the way back to the beginning of man.

    This means that your question is too broad. You need to narrow its focus a bit in order to have a reasonable answer. You could ask "what martial arts are mentioned in the oldest extant records?" Or perhaps "are there records of Chinese influence on the martial arts in ancient Japan?" Another might be "is there any single art that had a large influence on other Japanese arts in old Japan?" One question that you should ask is "can anyone recommend books or web sites that I can read to increase my knowledge of Japanese history?" As you can see, these questions would not give a defintive answer, but they may advance your knowledge base and help you to research more deeply into the answers you are looking for.

    Good luck!
     
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  7. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    Thanks pgsmith and bgile. okay then thats fair what your saying I'll refrase.

    when was the first recorded japanese martial art that didn't revolve round being the biggest person wins? :confused:

    if anyone can recomend books i'm open for suggestions?
     
  8. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Hmmm ... I'm still not quite sure what you're looking for. Sumo isn't about just size, but it is a sport, rather than truly martial. In the early 700's, there is mention in a number of existing records about horsemen being hired that could shoot bows and used swords and spears. This implies that there were martial arts being taught within the various clans at that time. Maniwa Nen Ryu is the oldest Japanese school still in existence as far as I know of. They were founded in 1368, and still teach sword, naginata, and spear.

    Karl Friday has several good books out about old Japan's warrior history if that's your interest.

    If you are looking for the history of martial arts in general, you might be interested in Joe Svinth's Kronos. It's worth checking out, and is actually full of interesting facts. It also contains a bibliography for further research. ... http://ejmas.com/kronos/index.html
     
  9. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    what i'm really looking for is some sort of direction to when the martail arts came around that were stylised for street defence like jujitsu or ninjutsu or something that can help me develop a good solid background to when the first martial art from japan (thats still going on to day) came around.

    i do see what your trying to pgsmith and i apologise but it's hard trying to put it into one question with out sounding to broard. and thanks for the advise.
     
  10. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Ahhh, I think I see where we are missing each other. You're thinking of today's "martial arts" such as jujutsu, karate, etc ... The answer, unfortunately, is you can't get there from here. :) The "martial arts" that are prevelant today, were not taught that way in historical Japan. You had "schools", not "arts". The samurai were a professional fighting class. As such, their training was very broad. The koryu schools taught weapons (knife, sword, naginata, spear, archery) as well as empty-hand fighting (usually referred to as jujutsu or yawara). All samurai were expected to learn these things along with horsemanship, fortifications, tactics, and espionage. Different schools had slightly different ideas and methods, but they all taught pretty much the same thing in total. Most schools emphasized a particular area more than others (such as the "ninja clans" and espionage, or Hozoin ryu and spear), but they all taught a bit of it all. As I mentioned earlier, the oldest school that I know of that is still in existence is the Maniwa Nen Ryu. However, they have lost a lot of their curriculum over the years.

    Koryu.com has a ryu guide ... http://www.koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html which list many of the existing schools and what they still teach. The only truly comprehensive list is in a book called Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. It is, unfortunately, only available in Japanese, but it lists every school that the authors could find anything about from 30 or 40 years of research through old records all over Japan.

    I know that doesn't exactly answer your question, but I hope it helps! :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2007
  11. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    thanks pgsmith your right i was looking at todays martial arts.

    thanks for the help and most apreciative
     

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