Punching correctly in the Takamatsuden

Your saying a cutting downwards motion with the hands is the same as a punching forwards motion with the hands. That is obviously flawed.

 

No, your understanding of a sword cut is flawed. Cutting from jodan is not straight down unless you are doing a kind of executioners or sword testing cut suemono giri(opponent is incapacitated or held down), and even then, there is a forward component. If you are actually stepping as you cut, your arm goes diagonally forward(down and forward). Anybody with any sword or other weapons experience would know this instinctually. Such an action would be strangely comparable to striking with the rear hand held in Doko no Kamae, as I already pointed out.

 

Irony a bjkn Dan grade telling other people their sword work is poor.

 

"Strangely" is an interesting word to use.

 

Fusen, are you thinking of the wrong hand "moving straight down"?

Or are you thinking of a cut that comes right down to the waist? I am meaning a cut to the head or neck.

Here is a vid of Jigen ryu (sorry I was in a hurry, couldn't find something slower!) showing at around 8 sec how the hand closest to the tsuba, moves forward, further than downward to cut (and yes, it's not exactly the straight cut I was talking about but the point is still valid).

Are you suggesting that when you cut from daijodan, your right hand should end up close to your chest?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAaAdzmF7o[/ame]

 

A Classic punch is straight forward hitting parallel to the floor.
A downwards cut from a large upper level stance is a move forward into position, and a cut downwards.

In your video, none of the attacks were from dai jodan.

 

Well trawling through youtube looking for a specific cut proved difficult.

So...you would move forward first and then once there cut down? And you still would not have your hand move forward??? Do you have a vid of this method?

Which sword school is that from?

I think we are talking about completely different things.

 

The unarmed equivalent would be a hammerfist, you break distance and cut downwards, if you say that a stepping hammerfist is the same as a stepping punch you can see why the comparison is a poor one.

 

No, you are making that comparison.

 

So your saying a downwards cut is less like a downwards hammerfist then it is a parallel to the floor straight line strike.

 

Not sure I even know my name any more!

I give up trying to describe the motion via text.

 

Boom ninjutsu, the art of winning!

 

Not all dan ranks in the Bujinkan are the same. If you have reason to disagree with my post though, I'm all ears.

So again, where did you learn sword? Your posts show a lack of understanding of basic sword cutting. Think of the shortest distance between two points. If you are striking forward, why wouldn't your arm move from upwards to forwards? If you cut as you are suggesting one do, your sword tip would draw a circle instead of an arc, and would be easily avoided. All weapon work in our ryu make use of a forward component, not just a circular one. Otherwise, you are reaching the pinnacle of length at the arc and then moving backwards after. Not smart if your opponent moves even a little backwards.

Wrong. That is your comparison, which is as flawed as the original comparison from ichimonji that you were talking about. It isn't like a hammer fist, but a punch coming from doko no kamae as described.

You were the only one talking about a parallel strike. That is what a punch from ichimonji is like, or a tsuki from seigan. Not an attack from jodan.

That was irony.

 

Unless your English, I'm pretty sure your definition of irony won't match mine.

I think I've realised the issue, your punching from doko will have the elbow underneath the fist for the majority of its tragegtory (which is also why its a weak method), so in that its similar to a shallow downwards cut with no follow through.

Congratulations for proving your case of poor suboptimal body mechanics.

 

Not like you to be so evasive. So where did you learn sword again?

Not if you strike like you would do a sword cut or throwing a shuriken, or sending a kusari forward.

 

Pm'd you.

 

Fusen, I agree with you for what it is worth. The classical sword cut is done like casting a fishing line. It is important not to force the blade but let it cut along the path of least resistance, otherwise you get "shaking of the blade" and an unclean cut.

I want to point out that, IMHO, that there is another way to approach sword work, and that is of a bokken or stick. Pretty much that is what I think PR is really describing. With blunt weapon you want to hit with tip for most power and there is pushing element where the elbow moves up when the hand moves forward and down. It is like a piston. You can see many examples in this kendo video. Particularly at 2:24 the strike to the top of the head.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SHWXQBVL4"]Kendo in High Speed Camera(Slow Motion) - YouTube[/ame]

This actually makes some sense to me because if you sword wasn't very sharp (as the case with blades made of cheaper materials), you could want to hit like this.


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To change the subject, can we discuss the striking done between 3:59 and 5:08 in this video of Kono sensei?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gHwZTiLBJ0"]Taijutsu-Kono - YouTube[/ame]

The two examples of different ways to punch are exactly the two types I was talking about. The pulling force is what he demonstrates as what he uses. At 4:09-4:20 he shows a different way, which is the pushing force that I was talking about.

I basically punch like he does, but not just with lead straight punch but with reverse punch too. I add a little bit more push at the end to drive the strike through the target, but that is maybe because of my boxing and karate training. I still prefer to keep the push until the last possible moment.

 

What I was describing I thought was pretty clear. Guess not...


When you cut from above to a target in front of you, your arm should go forward and downward in a diagonal direction, from the target's perspective, it is a straight line and the shortest and fastest route. It also pushes which helps if anything attempts to impede the strike. It also allows you continual reach throughout the cut(unlike cutting downward because you are prescribing a circle and anything before or after the apex won't reach the target, after the apex draws it towards you). So this is basic cutting 101, and applies to other weapons as well(similarly to punching and blocking). You don't attack in a circle, but add movement to the circle.

With punching or striking with the body, you want it to closely mimic how you strike with weapons. This gets back to efficiency and universality of technique and the Oda loop as well. Fewest number of techniques makes the decision making process simpler. If I have to learn to strike one way armed, box when unarmed, mix in judo throws, wrestling tackles, and jujutsu on the ground, I am creating work for myself. If I can use nearly the same mechanics and principles throughout, it is more seamless.

You punch in a way that can displace his attempts to stop your motion, is hard to see or feel, and is damaging. How the elbow moves is of most import as is angling and coordination with footwork. In some of Kono's technique you can see the sticking and sliding weight being applied although he is cheating in his demos by using speed to beat the opponent's reaction. The principles are similar to what I was saying about the lead hand in oitsuki and are sound. As ninjutsu is about being invisible, strikes should be felt before they are seen. If you aren't able to move in this way, you will find the techniques of the Takamatsuden much less effective.

 

Rebel Wado: Which sword school(s) have you trained in?

Also do you equate Kendo with Kenjutsu?

 

Gap jumper would you not equate A sword tsuki more to a unarmed tsuki (second half once your feet havebgone past parallel, or front hand) then any other sword attack?