Teaching short forms before long forms?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by EmptyHandGuy, Aug 26, 2014.

  1. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Just wondering is there any point other than learning another form to teach say one of the short forms (Yang 24 for example) before teaching the longer more traditional 108 step Yang form?
     
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Many people find it easier to practice complete forms, so a short form makes practice easier. This in turn allows students to focus more on techniques than remembering the sequence.
     
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I prefer to teach my Taiji students the solo drills first.

    - brush knee twist step, and repeat it left and right 20 times,
    - single whip, and repeat it left and right 20 times.
    - diagonal fly, and repeat it left and right 20 times.
    - ...

    I may even teach the form one year later. The advantage of this method are:

    - Both left and right sides will be trained equally in the beginner stage.
    - Students can concentrate on the detail of each move.
    - It's easier to teach application along with the drills.
    - I can ask students to hold bricks on both hands when they work on the drills.
    - Later on, students can link those drills any way they want to create their own form (I strongly recommend that).
    - ...

    The 108 moves long form only contains about 50 different moves. The rest are redundant. You can use 50 drills to cover the whole form.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
  4. vian11

    vian11 New Member

    thanks for suggesions
     
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    here are some Taiji solo drills training:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSAtpyO8T5I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSAtpyO8T5I[/ame]

    Here is a Taiji solo drill with bricks in both hands:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur3iVEY3ldE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur3iVEY3ldE[/ame]
     
  6. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I can see the sense in it. I only learned the long form, and didn't even know that there was such a thing as a Wu short form until quite recently!

    Now when we very occasionally do the short form in my current class, I feel like it's a bit pointless, really. Whereas had I learnt the short form first and then gone on to learn the long form, it would have felt like progress!

    I think if people learnt a shorter form first, they might get encouragement from having learnt a whole form. I reckon some people must get put off by how much they feel they have to learn in the long form.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
  7. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    We start off learning several shorter forms first. I think learning the 108 first would have been overwhelming. The 24 is quite long enugh when one is a beginner. Memorizing the form, learning the basic principles of TCC is plenty. There are still a lot of moves in the 24. Most of the basic principle moves are in it.

    Plus, it is good for working in a short TCC session- say on a break at work.

    It really makes no difference to me whether I do the 24, the 40 or the 108. They all contain the same basic stuff. You aren't doing anything radically different from one to the other. All have parting the wild horses mane, Grasp sparrow's tail, etc. etc.
     
  8. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    If I'm pushed for time I often just do a part of the long form. I might do the first third one day, and then do the second third the next day. Knowing the short form would give an alternative of course.
     
  9. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I think learning extra forms is a bit redundant, as it's more choreography to learn, rather than focusing on the meat and bones of the movements.

    If I'm pressed for time, I'll either practice one of the 3 sections of the Yang long form (depending on how much time I have), or spend some time working on specific movements (ie; Waving Hands in Clouds, Grasping Sparrows Tail).
     
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree!

    The 108 moves form can be divided into 3 parts:

    part 1 - 20 moves,
    part 2 - 30 moves,
    part 3 - 58 moves.

    If you just treat the long form as 3 short forms and learn part 1, part 2, and part 3, you already have your 3 short forms available. You don't need to create new one. It's similar to you Tantui has 10 roads, you can always train each road independently as separate short form.

    When you learn a form, you have to know whether that form can make you to grow "tall", or that form can make you to grow "fat". If you learn 24 move, 36 moves, 48 moves, and then 108 moves. If the "Grasp Sparrows Tail" exist in all 4 forms, You have repeated the same "Grasp Sparrows Tail" training 4 times. It's like to go through the elementary school 4 times which won't give you a PhD degree.

    What kind of form can help you to grow "tall"? For example, in the praying mantis system, the

    - beginner level form Bung Bu emphasis on "speed development".
    - intermediate level form Luan Je emphasis on "body unification - body pull/push limbs".

    It make sense to train intermediate level form for "different purpose" after you have finished your beginner level form. It doesn't make sense to train many forms just to achieve the "same purpose".
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  11. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Well I've started to learn the 24 step this morning, its what is taught to beginners before the 108 step form. Was also introduced to push hands in the first lesson as well, which in my previous encounter with taiji we never did! But that was a class run at a health gym primarily for health so no surprises there!
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  12. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Sounds like you‘ve found a class that you enjoy!

    Good luck, keep us posted, and feel free to ask any questions!
     
  13. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    I've read in several places that some class the 24 step form as not real taiji, would anyone agree with this or are the people saying this being bias?
     
  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    What people class as ‘real‘ taichi can vary greatly (just take a look at the ‘authentic taichi‘ thread!).

    I think it is safe, however, to say that 24-step is a modern form, rather than a traditional one.
     
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If your long 108 moves form is real, the short 24 moves form that you create should be real too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Whoever said that might possibly mean that it isn't 'authentic' in the sense that it isn't as old as the long form from which it is derived. But then you might as well say that the long form isn't 'authentic' because it isn't as old as the fast form from which it in turn was derived! :D

    On the other hand, it may just be 'form snobbery' on their part. I have to hold my hands up and admit that I used to be very snooty about the idea of a short form, because to my mind it smacked of dilution. But now that I've had some experience of it, I'm in a better position to judge, and I realise that it can have it's place. I still prefer the long form, but that's purely a matter of taste.

    In a nutshell, the short form is 'real Taiji'....it's just shorter. It may contain fewer 'techniques', but that's not what really matters. The important thing is that it is performed correctly in accordance with the Taiji classics, in just the same way that the long form should be.
     
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    The 24 was created from modern Yang system form for the purpose of exercise for the masses. As such,it wasn't "packaged" for the masses with the body of teachings that the existing Yang systems contained.

    Anyone having the Yang "package" can teach or execute the 24 with all the Yang components.There's plenty of people these days doing various Yang forms without much of the "package" involved so it just comes down to what's being taught past the outer shape of a form,whether it's the 24,Cheng's 37,or a "trad" long form.
     
  18. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    I do believe that it often boils down to form snobbery as Johnno put it! That because its not the full 108 step form your not going to get real taiji. I myself have been wondering if there was any point in learning the 24 step, for that matter I was in two minds to go with a club which teaches the 37 step Cheng form. But in the end the benefits of the club I'm with far exceded the ones from the other club. For one they teach all their arts with martial intent, which is something that I wouldn't have gotten at the other club.
     
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Well,there's plenty of that in the TC world.Chen system isn't TC,Cheng's form is too soft,new Yang is castrated,etc,etc. Quite often opined by people who couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial wet paper bag.

    However,as you stated -
    So it's used by your teacher as a basic "break in" practice routine prior to the 108.Not uncommon these days,I know people who do the same.

    Point still remains that the 24 was not developed as part of a martial system nor was generally taught with the main body of Yang teachings.So while it's possible to run across someone who only knows and teaches this particular hand form yet also received the body of Yang teachings they'd be even fewer and farther between than those from a regular Yang line. Someone teaching only the 24 and having no background in a "formal" Yang lineage-- almost a sure thing that they wouldn't have much in the way of Yang TC skills.Please note I said "almost". Of course this is true of the vast majority of TC teachers,most of whom are simply teaching slo-mo choreographed exercise.


    Yeah,well people have their beliefs even if they have no foundation. You can learn TC and be able to use it without ever learning a linked form of 24,37,108,or pi squared.;)
     
  20. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Modern form, but all traditional movements.

    What is not important is the sequence of the pattern of the form.

    What is important is understanding the movements and their applications in depth.

    IMO., you can understand "grasp sparrow's tail" whatever form it is in. It is the same movement. You can delve into it at whatever level the student is ready to handle.

    Only exception to this that I know is the 48 combination form. Because some of the movements ARE done differently - since the style mixes Chen, Yang, Wu and Sun styles together.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014

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