What exactly are the benefits of Tai Chi, and how does it compare to yoga?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Lad_Gorg, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    So when I was young the general opinion of Tai Chi was that it just useless Chinese yoga that only had "use" to the new age hippy types. But lately I've noticed the tides changing, and Tai Chi seems to be making waves again with studies demonstrating health benefits that range from the psychological to the physical. And now I hear that people like Hannibal are TCers.

    So guys what's the deal? Ignoring the martial art elements of Tai Chi, what are real tangible benefits of the practice? Please leave the new age stuff like chi, chakra, and energy out of the discussion, since I genuinely have no interest in these concepts.
    Also as a side question, how does TC compare to yoga? They seem to advertise the same benefits, but the practices are also very different from an outsider looking in.

    And yes I'm looking to possibly joining a local Tai Chi club. I'm looking for the supposed benefits in posture and bio-mechanics which I often feel are a bit out of whack. And I think it'd be a nice contrast to the weight-lifting that I do regularly.
    Although I'm sure that the club available to me are more along the new age/hippy leaning, and may not be of the best breed, but you work with what you've got right?

    There may also be a very attractive girl that's rumoured to practices with the group that I've been trying to find the opportunity to talk to for ages now, but we'll ignore that for the time being :rolleyes:
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Balance, coordination, relaxation, good breathing.

    Can't really compare it to "Yoga", because that term encompasses so many different practices.
     
  3. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    Just realized I forgot another question.

    For the TMAers among us, how does TC compare to performing Kata? Here I find the practices seem to be very similar, and from my experiences with Kata I find that the benefits seem to be very similar to what TC claims.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

  5. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    I'm a noob level TC dabbler, but since that is probably the level you would be at for a while when starting out, I can give you my opinions...take them for what they are worth given my noob level though.

    I can only speak for myself, but when I do the few CMA forms I know - I'm exercising pretty close to the level I would when shadowboxing. I'm not throwing full power anything, but I can definitely work up a sweat doing that stuff - even for 15 minutes or so. But that is just the one CMA/TMA I really know a bit of, others might be much more TC-like.

    I only know one TC form, but doing it is a lot less cardio intensive. It also is a lot more relaxing. To me the slower movement mellows me out. Doing the TC moves seems to work out some aches and pains too. I have some long term shoulder glitches that seem to improve from doing TC.

    How is it compare to Yoga? I have only done yoga a few times, so not sure - but I know with Tai Chi, I get a lot of corrections and suggestions. Basically it is like you are performing it for a judge sometimes. That is not always so relaxing, but when I do it on my own - at home it is very relaxing. I guess Yoga could be just as relaxing - and a lot of those postures are very good for stretching - come to think of it, a lot of the stretches I do in MA classes are very similar to Yoga moves. Or are exactly the same. So I'd think you could get some great stretching with Yoga, of course I guess there are lots and lots of different styles - and that could vary.

    Where I learn TC right now when I learn it formally doesn't put a real martial focus on it. And I guess it would be like that at the new age/hippy place you are talking about. But they do teach a sword form where I go, and occasionally there is some minor discussion of MA stuff with the TC. So there is some MA aspect to it that Yoga lacks. It would be cool to get a real MA focused study of TC, and I am certain I'm missing out on all the really great parts of it by not studying it that way.

    I have a friend who used to do some sort of static Qigong - just holding poses for a while, which he liked better that your garden variety Tai Chi - because he felt it was simpler to learn, less corrections, and more relaxing. I'm guessing in practice that would be more of a yoga like experience. Where I do TC (when I do it formally) we open with some static moves that aren't really in the TC I know - and that is one of my favorite parts of it.

    As far as TC health benefits, I'm not 100% sure there is a lot there that you wouldn't get from some other low impact exercise and stretching. I know there are studies about balance improvements, etc. - but is it really better than some low key stuff you could do in a gym? For me the real benefit is the relaxation I get from it. I probably would get the same thing from some yoga or something. Since I probably could get some decent yoga for free at the gym I belong to, I should maybe investigate this more - just to drop in for a class now and then.

    I'd be really interested in other peoples opinion on this stuff, and where I'm wrong in my rambling here.
     
  6. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Hey Lad Gorg,

    We had a similar question from Mike Jobs on the below thread, I did a short write up which seemed to gel with a few people, maybe you'll find it helpful:

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120409&page=2

    If you need any help finding decent schools/teachers in your area, just let us know, I'm sure the MAP hive mind can come up with some recommendations, though I guess this would scuttle your designs on the attractive lady you mentioned.
     
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The most benefit of the Taiji training is to remind you that "the end of the previous move should be the beginning of the next move". By using this principle, instead of pulling your

    - punching arm back, you should always "pull something back".
    - kicking leg back, you should always "land your foot at the right place".

    This principle will force you to think about combo - use the 1st move to set up the 2nd move.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  8. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Forget all the gumph about Chi, Meridians, new age spirituality etc.

    TCC and inner MA is essentially (IMHO) about working to detect and respond to the exchange of forces in physical circumstance, with opponent(s) contact and threat, your own personal posture/dynamics/mobility; and developing a system of effective capability to best exploit your situation - which can manifest itself in many ways.

    Problem is:- a lot of TCC CIMA is not well taught, understood or explained; and hence developed.

    Best I can suggest, is find out who is best that you will travel to, train with them to gain some context, but quietly keep looking to see what else is around, and be prepared to go elsewhere, until you find what suits you best and people that suit you best.
     
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The essential difficulty of TCC, is that you have to learn to develop different movements and techniques at the same time, from principles e.g. 'use whole body to brush and counter strike', and make them flow from 1 into the next, constantly.

    This is easier said that done, and folk tend to have somewhat subjective ideas/perceptions as to what is 'correct', which for a non-intuitive MA, does not spell out 'learning quickly'.
     
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    It is more than 30 years since i did any Yoga - the benefits are stretching, postural, breathing.

    All this applies to TCC BUT the postures and movements are much more difficult to develop. Without some understanding of the Martial applications from which the Forms are derived, TCC Form will remain a fluffy esoteric mildly relaxing form of gentle exercise and nothing more.
     
  11. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    The difference between Taijiquan and Yoga is that one was developed as a martial art, and one was not.

    Health benefits of Taijiquan come from practising it as a martial art, not from trying to chase reputed health benefits.

    Practising Taijiquan form will make you good at performing Taijiquan form. Depending on how you practice your form will influence the results you get from such practice, ie; someone who practices a high-frame form may not develop the same leg strength as someone practising a low-frame form.

    The answers are not in practising form, but in the myriad of little drills and exercises that go on behind the scenes.
     
  12. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    I'm interested! Could you expand on what you mean?

    Although that begs the question about whether this club will offer what you're talking about. Sadly it's also my cheapest option since it's offered as a free class at my gym.
     
  13. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    from my experience (ie the main things i got out of it myself):

    if, as dan bian says, it is trained as a martial art, independently of the applicability of the technique themselves (will comment on this at the end of the post), it will teach you an absurd level of body awareness, an almost as absurd level of fine motor control, quite a bit of efficiency in motion, good balance and pretty good tactile sensitivity. with a bit of work, you can actively apply this to things that are not taiji, and the end result will be that you will move "better", so to speak. further training of martial qualities may or may not help you develop better power generation too (or rather, the combination of the above abilities can be applied, with the correct cues, to generate power in a lot of funky directions and through different body parts, which may or may not have practical uses depending on how good you are at it and on how creative you are with your other styles).

    re: training it martially: simply put, the motor control elements of taiji depend on having a specific goal for what you're doing rather than just "move your arm from A to B". if you don't engage your waist properly, or turn your torso without moving your arm, or any of a myriad other little details that mean the difference between having optimal alignment and being dropped on ye olde butte, then it's not going to work very well, so you end up developing those skills so you don't in fact end up dropped on your bum every session. otoh, if you do the hippy kind of taiji, it's not really all that different from people who "do yoga", but only do a couple sun salutations, a warrior pose or two, and go home, as you're just going through the motions and getting a bit of stretching, balance and joint mobility.

    re: the difference between the taiji forms and typical kata from other arts: the aim of the practice itself is different. in karate, tkd, etc, leaving aside the whole issue of mutation ver time, whether the movements are applicable in a modern context, etc, forms are basically a repository of examples of techniques done in a completely abstract context, where the nuances of application (rather than those of correct performance of the isolated formal techniques) can be added to solo training, but only come into play when you're drilling the application with a partner. on the other hand, taiji forms are ALL nuance, basically. every half-turn, every slight weight shift, every little hand movement should be a basically full-body motion, often involving high amounts of joints, the actions of all of which one should be minding actively. you'll note that taiji has special stepping patterns that are designed to let you do this at a slow pace, which in turn is what lets you do this; usually people will try to apply it as-is to other styles and fail because it's simply impossible to go at the required pace, and they end up just doing their second style super slowly just because (it can be done, but requires adapting the concept of the training method to the way the other style moves).

    oh, and push hands done right is basically all about getting a dominant position via efficient handfighting and footwork so you can dump the other guy on his ass. from there you can extrapolate handfighting on the ground and acquiring a dominant position from which you can hit the guy in the face and THEN dump him on his ass :p
     
  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    A professional footballer is not a top level athlete because he has a kick-about in the park every Sunday morning - it's down to a lot of drills and conditioning that take place behind the scenes.

    The same with taijiquan.

    A good taijiquan practitioner is NOT good because they practice lots of form. It comes down to all the little skills.
     
  15. ned

    ned Valued Member


    I'd recommend reading inthespirit's post in the thread he linked for an in depth answer but to add my humble opinion and trying to be succinct;


    -Ability to relax and release tension,largely through

    -Breathing techniques/visualisation to aid both physical awareness and

    -Understanding of bio-mechanics,efficiency of effort/movement

    -fluidity in reaction/sensitivity

    -Self analysis/mindfulness


    Not quite sure why you'd want to ignore the martial aspect :confused: ?
    It's better not to seperate and ''pick'n'mix'' the various elements
    of taiji practice as they all complement each other.
     
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    This.

    If you just did forms then you wouldn't be learning Taiji, you'd just be learning the forms.

    Learning the forms, learning pushing hands and learning to relax are three apsects of the same process, and they all compliment each other. None of them is an end in themself, unless that is all you want out of your practise. But if you really want to learn Taiji then they all play their part.

    If you have a teacher who doesn't understand the martial aspect then they will only be able to teach you the outward aspect of the forms and maybe some very limited pushing hands. And you will not get the same health benefits as you would if you had a teacher who really understands Taiji.
     
  17. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    I was trying to avoid a discussion about the effectiveness of TC for developing fighting abilities because that's not why I'm looking into starting TC.

    I've checked the club out, and they don't seem too be too hippy-ish. They practice the pushing hands et al. So I'll give the class a try when my wrist is slightly more rehabilitated (just came out of a cast).

    Thanks for the input guys!
     
  18. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    It's not about that. You wanted benefits,there's much more in the way of benefits when the training is and the methods are in depth. Which means the training which makes it a functional system.Even if you're not planning on being a headhunter.

    However, once you learn your form and learn how to practice it,if you do your form for an hour or more a day you'll get benefits.

    Push hands-this is tougher as you need to do a lot of it and you can't do it alone.

    I doubt any of the "veterans" here feel you won't get any benefits out of just doing the basic methods of these two practices. You just don't get as much with a limited curriculum.

    But in the end it comes down to what your teacher's got.

    I will say that those that can (whether they do or not ) teach it as a functional system usually have much more knowledge regarding T'ai Chi mechanics than those who can't.

    Sorry about the wrist.I made the mistake of practicing form when my hand was in a cast. Kinda forgot that the hand would swell up from all the blood pumping into it.Was very unpleasant.:(
     
  19. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    One of the biggest benefits to Tai Chi is that it can lower your blood pressure. If you are stressed out constantly or have a poor heart, Tai Chi is a very relaxing practice that can improve circulation in your body, lower your heart rate, etc. Some of the students in our school are paying for Tai Chi lessons through their health insurance, and doctors around the area promote the school to their patients.

    That's a basic benefit. Other things like improving balance, using it as a form of physical therapy for frozen shoulder, joint stiffness, etc., is something a more advanced or accredited instructor can utilize. Cheng Man Ching, a well-known instructor, attributes his being healed of tuberculosis, just by practicing Tai Chi every day. Unlike yoga, which can actually be stressful, Tai Chi form is pure relaxation, control, and softness.
     
  20. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Of course to attain a deep level of that pure relaxation, control, and softness Cheng used to come home so wiped out from the training at Yang's school that Madam Cheng said he'd collapse on the bed and be too tired to lift his feet onto it.:zzz:
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2014

Share This Page