This "hard" training that Ueshiba did... Was it more spontaneous? More alive? More realistic? Or just more "hard"? How was it "hard"?
It seems training was very intense, a much tougher form pf practise than modern Aikido. It was technically "Aiki Budo" at this point and membership was only possible through a letter of introduction. Injurieslthough injuries were common, and there was a huge student turnover, although as many were already accomplished in other arts this might be a factor in that. Kano sent a lot of his students there, which means there must have been SOMETHING that appealed to a the pragmatist
I think the problem is that this represents a mental shift - I see in a lot of arts, JKD included, where the perfection of a technique or drill takes precedence to the actual intent. There hasto be that balance - or as Bruce Lee used to say "practicing swimming strokes on dry land means nothing; at some point you have to get into the water"
More adjectives. So old-fashioned aikido training was "hard", it was "scary", it was "intense", it was "tough". Okay, so what? Here's what I'm getting at: it's entirely possible to work very hard and still not be good at something because you're practicing the wrong things. A lot of the people Royce Gracie embarrassed in the first few UFCs were very tough guys who had pushed their bodies to the limit developing their skills. When they stepped into the ring with Gracie, though, they discovered they hadn't been developing the right skills for this kind of confrontation. Ultimately, how hard they had trained didn't matter because they had been training the wrong things. I submit that aikidoists are training the wrong things for real fights/self-defense situations. The "hard" training that you and Wolfie are talking about might make someone better at aikido, and it might make practitioners tougher and more physically fit, but none of that necessarily adds up to real combat skills. What does develop real combat skills, I think, is aliveness, and that is something sorely lacking in virtually all aikido training.
I made an addition to your last point because I think it is important The "adjectives" may not be too helpful on the specifics so perhaps we need to look at other things. It is a fact that in 1930 Kano visited Ueshiba at his Mejirodai Dojo. From this visit Kano remarked "This is the ideal martial art that I had in mind. This is true Judo." Kano sent two of his own disciples to train with Ueshiba - I postulate this would be an unusual move had he not seen value in it. One of the students he sent was Tomiki, who went on to found one of the branches of Aikido that actually still does SOME level of competitive outlet Now don't mistake what I am claiming with regards to Aikido as a combative system - I do not believe it is massively combative, but then nor do i actually think it was meant to be. When it was being trained "hard" then it was more of a conventional Jiu Jutsu form, less fluff and more whack, so technically (some would say pedentically) Aikido was nevr practiced that hard back in the day My issue with dismissing the technqiues of Aikido is that they do work and variations 9and sometimes identical) techniques can be found in BJJ, CACC, Judo, Sambo and any other number grappling based systems because there are only so many ways a body can move - an armbar on the outside is always and armbar on the outside; a choke is always a choke and a wristlock is always a wristlock Aikido's big problem is it has an alarming tendency to over stylize these moves to the point where they lose a lot of what makes them work in the first place - my previous analogy of boxing and boxercise holds true Again it is not about the moves because it ALL comes down to how you train them
Its a pity you didn't get to train with koyo Jay. Yes, he loved to debate and dissect, but what he really liked, was to get to the nitty gritty. Even as a fellow of 71, he had unbelievable timing, sharpness of movement and interceptive accuracy of striking; and above all fighting spirit and a desire to find out what you were all about. I trained with him just the once, and I can quite honestly state that I have never encountered any MA teacher with quite the same ability to work on someone (me) new in such a short space of time. After a while I dumped one of his fellows (Gerry - Makotokai on MAP) very technically and cleanly with shihonage (4 direction throw) - after some correction on some points. Koyo then pointed out to me "Ok what are you going to do when there is more than 1?" I answered "get on my bike pronto".
I'm sure there is value in it; otherwise I wouldn't train it. I just don't think that, as a stand-alone art, aikido functions as combat training. I mentioned earlier in the thread that the one exception to what I've been saying might be Tomiki/Shodokan aikido. I don't know enough about it to say for sure. I agree. And I think that is an important distinction. I agree with all of this; as I have been saying, the most popular knock on aikido is its training methods, not its technical curriculum. It goes back to what you said earlier about what aikido was meant to be. If aikido is meant to be combat training, then it's fair to call aikido techniques "over-stylized". But if (as I believe) aikido is a tool for studying and practicing principles of movement, then I think its techniques are just fine.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukAzk5G7aPo"]"The Way of the Warrior: Aikido and Kendo, The Sporting Way" (Entire Video) - YouTube[/ame] The Way of the Warrior - Aikido and Kendo Here`s a video I stumbled on yesterday, I guess it`s an old BBC Documentary so i`m sure a lot of you have already seen it if it hasn't already been posted on MAP before. I wanted to highlight some areas that I found interesting and that I haven't really seen in allot of today Aikido 3:44 There is a good example of Tomiki Aikido. 8:17 They introduce a gentlemen that gives demonstrations on how Aikido can be effective again Karate practitioners (A Demonstration, But a good one). 10:04 The same gentlemen expresses his views on the difference between western Arts and Japanese Martial arts. 14:52 Conditioning and Basic training in Universities ( I found the way they train interesting, Different then Aikido classes Iv attended) 16:20 A Gentlemen of Note with a Large Number of Dans in different Martial arts and his opinion why Martial arts would benefit from adopting a sporting philosophy. 17:25 Classic Aikido Explains the Gains from staying traditional and of course the Loses from not adopting a sporting Philosophy, very good points are made here, continues until 19:20 where they switch to Tomiki aikido and the Gains and losses of Sporting Aikido. 22:40 SPARING! a little bit, but very enjoyable. Anyways, Wanted to share this as a lot of the points made in the videos have been expressed by others on this site such as Hannibal which I strongly agree with. Hope the people who haven't seen this documentary enjoy it
I agree. But I think the problem is the "empire builders" who will water down standards to keep students turning up to their ever increasing number of clubs. Running a martial arts organisation which teaches a "way of life" involving "life long learning" is a decent money spinner. I can't speak for JKD as I have no experience of that. But I've witnessed this first hand in Aikido.
Not only is there a difference between training hard and training right, but also a major one between training hard and training against resistance. You could train full speed and full force all day against a cooperative uke - looking great and sharp and all that - and still fare extremely poorly when going against a resisting opponent. Actually I find the latter to be mostly the issue in TMAs. Many jujutsukas and Aikidokas do perform their techniques hard and fast - just not against resistance. That's the problem.
Very good points. I love training hard as possible, but have no concern wether its applicable to self defense or 'in the octagon.' I place little value in those things. I place great value in training my butt off, beyond the point I feel I can continue, on a semi-regular basis - thus pushing my previously conceived limits.
I have no issue with people practicing a martial art for non-combative purposes, but I have always wondered how someone expects to understand the substance of a given technique or grow from the self-examination involved in training without ever learning the martial art. The problem with that is, if you can't execute your techniques live, but can perform them with cooperative partners, you're missing more of the technique than you're getting.
Well I've used aikido techniques in fights in the US and in Afghanistan....I just don't really care to focus on the "r3al deadly street fighting' because I don't typically get into street fights.
I used to have a lot of problems at my old club where they would look at the way Judoka perform throws and say "well they're not doing it technically correct", and although often it would be true on paper I would think 'but that's what you need to do to make it work on a resisting partner, so doesn't that make it the correct way after all?
most MAs work best against people who don't know how to fight at all , Aikido is not an exception . it seems to me that Aikido is best for self defense rather than fighting , i say this because of what little Aikido i've seen . 1 ) a guy attacks in a particular manner 2 ) second guy parries the attack and knocks the first guy down 3 ) now it's the second guy's turn this kind of training ( imo ) is more similar to a hit & run SD strategy than a fight . also keep in mind , fighting boxers and kickboxers is tough , so don'e expect any quick results !!! they have extensive physical training , the type not everyone is capable of withstanding . there's a Muay Thai class near my house , and i get to see the way they train . they practice a certain punch/kick/elbow/knee strike , then they start doing 40-50 push-ups , change the strike and practice for a while , do 50 or so sit-ups , change the strike , ... and this goes one for 90 minutes without a minute of resting . by the time their done , they look like they've gone swimming !!! THIS , is the kind of MA that's best suited for fighting . at least they learn to defend against the dreaded finger-pistol !!!
