Scholarly research on ninjutsu in English

Surprised not to be in the land of the permabanned but there isn't really much else to say so I'll keep it short. Sad that Dean now seems to be among the list of the moved on…

In another thread, a person claiming to be looking at ninjutsu from an objective standpoint went on to drop in his own words a "nuke" on the Bujinkan, in the guise of an old e-budo post from years ago. As an objective outsider, one might have expected this poster to then go on to post any of the many refutations of said article, but instead he then went back to Bullshido to gloat about his actions here on MAP. No need to rehash them or address this outdated and obviously biased article in its entirety, but the attempt to create issues in the forum was noted. Claiming civility and objectivity while showing behavior quite the opposite is not the best way to go about being considered a scholar of any particular field. Be that as it may, there were a few things that did need addressing, so I will do so here.

1) As I stated in another thread, there is almost no scholarly research of ninjutsu in English. This is a fact, if you do not like it, please show otherwise. Kacem's book and an old one by Stephen Turnbull, both fraught with their own problems come the closest. Antony Cummins has been publishing a lot of "translations" of old ninjutsu texts recently, but he neither has the academic, cultural, or language skills to be considered a scholar or true researcher, and he is busy burning his bridges in Iga just like he did with the Bujinkan and Genbukan. Probably won't be long before the whole Natori fiasco goes South too. I forgot to mention another couple of translations of the Shoninki that can be found but there you go. This is pretty much what is available.

2) There are also very few scholars in Japan(Japanese people we're talking about now) who have researched ninjutsu, none who really claim to be experts and have published on it's entire history and breadth. Some historians, novelists, amateur researchers, and martial artists have published books on various aspects of ninjutsu and then there are are pop fiction accounts, novels, and old scrolls and books from different time periods with different takes on aspects of ninjutsu.

So again, there is no consensus amongst scholars of ninjutsu that Hatsumi sensei's take on it fails to match the historic record. There are several people around Japan who are trying to cash in on ninjutsu, all whom have their own philosophy, amount of research they've done, and more importantly; agendas to pursue. Some of the more vocal detractors of Hatsumi sensei do so on the rank in the Bujinkan issue, his flamboyance, and jealousy. I have yet to hear people who have investigated the actual ryu that he is soke of make claims that they were collections of a mismatch of techniques taken from various arts and peddled together. There is some talk of a letter that Takamatsu sensei wrote to the Kuki family, but neither Togakure/Gyokko/or Koto ryu have a stylistic or philosophical connection to the Kuki arts so to claim that they were created from taking Kukishinden ryu and mixing it with some unknown Chinese styles is ludicrous.

3) Where there have been issues with content, i.e. putting kata from Asayama Ichiden Ryu and adding them in with Kuki hanbo or with taking chain techniques learned from Masaaki ryu and doing something similar, Bujinkan members who have studied these things will be the first to blow the whistle on themselves about it.

4) The scroll issue and koryu "authentication" nonsense has been telephoned(you know the game where you repeat what you heard) into utter internet fantasyland, and the reality of the situation is nothing like what gets passed around as the truth. In fact, Hatsumi sensei is in possession of so many scrolls from so many different ryu, one wonders if that is part of the politics against him. Needless to say, the current worldwide situation of the Bujinkan definitely is, as is his success and personality. So again, without looking at the ryu in-depth and researching things beyond what you may read online, you cannot reach any objective or scholarly appraisal of the situation.

5) Clearly there are some questions about the lineage, but that is not uncommon in the traditional arts. There are also issues with how the Bujinkan represents(or doesn't) the ryu ha that Hatsumi sensei is the soke of. However, until there has been actual scholarly research done and made public that investigates these things to a much more rigorous level, one cannot claim that Takamatsu sensei made everything up or that Hatsumi sensei is a fraud, all one can say is that there appear to be some discrepancies and issues with this or that aspect of the lineage and provence of the arts. That is nothing new to anybody who has spent a year or two in the Bujinkan and not an issue for many. It is definitely not some revelation worthy of "nuclear" status or something that should keep people up at night worrying.

In conclusion, if one has an in-depth relationship with the actual arts that make up the Takamatsuden, one will realize that there is no need to worry and that they are indeed true koryu arts. If one has to rely on other people's shoddy investigations, videos from youtube, and reading in martial arts rags(poor magazines) and online forums for their understanding, then they should understand that this does not constitute research, and no serious academic would even bother to listen to them after they realized their lack of credentials.

 

RP - re: Point 2 - How about a continuation of this and let the folks know some of the scholarly research that has been undertaken in Japan - not just about Ninjutsu per se, but other areas of the Bujinkan curriculum?

Some immediate thoughts that spring to mind:

BRDJT
Kakutogi Reikishi
Kukishinden Zensho
Kuki Bunkyo no Kenkyu

Other authenticated 'Kouryu' Takagi lines that acknowledge Takamatsu and Ishitani (x2)
eg: Inoue line

Other 'authors' who researched Hatsumi Sensei and Takamatsu Sensei:

Tobe Shinjuru
Akira Hino from the Budo Institute
Ryutaro Koyama
Teizu Shimizu

Any more ? Let's try and keep it unbiased and present both sides if possible.......

There's plenty of reading available for those who seriously want to research the more historical side of things.......

 

Not trying to toot my own horn here but I've put out two works on Ninjutsu myself:
Ninjutsu no Gokui "The essence of Ninjutsu" from 1917 and
Gendaijin no Ninjustu "Ninjutsu for the modern man" from 1937. Both of which give a picture of what the status of Ninjutsu was in the first half of the twentieth century.
In addition I worked on
Takagi Oriemon Budo Hero of Shiroishi
And my current project
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Martial-Arts-Japan-Volume/dp/1495915042/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397251784&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+compilete+martial+arts+of+japan"]Gekken[/ame]
which while on the surface seems to be an manga-like introduction to Koryu (originally published in 1898) it deals with the subject of Kyo-jitsu虚実, the use of reality and deception, in combat as well as Tsuka Sabaki柄捌き which is when an opponent attempts to take hold of and draw out your sword. As this appears with some frequency in Ninjutsu videos (I have one where Hatsumi Sensei cranks a guys joints all over the place) I think it would not be out of place in a Ninpo library.

And actually I was wondering if anyone had any material they were interested in getting translated?

 

You and me both.

I think that there are some very real issues regarding lineage within the Takamatsuden, and I don't think that they deserve to be dismissed as unimportant. The reason that the Bujinkan has managed to grow so large and attract so many practitioners is largely due to the claimed historical link to the ninja. If Hatsumi had no Ninjutsu link, and claimed to be training people in a collection of koryu styles, I doubt he would have ever got anywhere near the numbers he now has in his organisation. Secondly, if it was found that large portions of what are being claimed as ancient schools actually originated with Takamatsu, then the whole "these arts are battlefield tested" arguments would suddenly fall apart.

Even if the arts are effective in a modern setting, effectiveness is almost of secondary importance. A large portion of what sets the Takamatsuden apart from arts such as Krav Maga or JKD is the historicity. If information came out that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that 6 of the 9 ryu (including all meaningful links to historical ninjutsu) originated with Takamatsu, what would the effect on the Bujinkan be? What would the effect be if it was proved that Hatsumi was fully aware of the deception? What if Hatsumi not only knew of the deception, but was now adding his own techniques and passing them off as belonging to historical ryu? I don't think the importance to the Bujinkan of the truthfulness of the proclaimed lineages in the Takamatsuden can be overstated.

As everyone is aware, 6 of the ryu in the Takamatsuden trace their lineage through Takamatsu's instructor (and grandfather) Toda. Now it is important to note that Toda isn't a figure who was claimed to have lived hundreds of years ago, but died in 1909 aged 85. It is claimed that Toda taught Budo as chief instructor at a martial academy in Kyoto and enjoyed an excellent reputation. He was asked to do this by Matsudaira Noriyasu (1794-1870), one of the Shogunate's senior councillors. It is also claimed that Toda ran a bone-setting clinic in Kobe.

The problem that the Takamatsuden faces is that in Japan (not known for poor record-keeping) there seems to be little/no evidence of Toda having ever existed. Now this is actually quite problematic, because the lions share of the validity of the Takamatsuden (and therefore the Bujinkan) rests on Toda having actually existed. Absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence, but it clearly raises some concerns. Given that no proof has been forthcoming so far, I doubt we will ever see any. So I guess people need to decide for themselves whether Toda's existence is something they are prepared to accept as an article of faith.

 

There was a thread on another forum that claimed that Kacem had located Toda's gravesite. Did this get substantiated?

 

My apologies to Meitetsu who recently translated a work written about ninjutsu by a novelist and critic Itou Gingetsu. I have yet to read his translation but have the original works that Itou wrote on ninjutsu. They are interesting and some of what he writes closely resembles what I have learned in the Bujinkan. However, I wouldn't put his books in the realm of scholarly research on ninjutsu in Japanese.

The Takagi book is excellent, although not ninjutsu so again irrelevant to this thread. Definitely worth owning, I read a friend's copy and was reluctant to return it(though I did).

Might as well reply here as it was germane. Tobe Shinjuro was another ninja novelist and sportswriter. Shimizu's works have more merit from a scholarly perspective, however his main research is on the Edo period and his works are more survey and general history books that history buffs buy. I only have one of Koyama's works on ninjutsu and cannot vouch for his sources, though he does go over quite a bit of Togakure related stuff and his historical information matches many other books out there.

A good place to go for books in Japanese on ninjutsu would of course be Kacem and Turnbull's bibliographies, as any of the lists online that list books on ninjutsu(an example being the one below).

http://www.geocities.jp/naoya_820/index-kenkyu-bon.htm

Naturally, there is a lot of information about the Kuki family and any search of the national library would land you some more titles. A lot of what is out there does not deal with the martial side however. As there are a lot of martial arts that incorporated the Takagi and Kuki traditions, there are many more resources around.

 

Good school of what?

We are talking about the lack of good scholarly research on ninjutsu, the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan dojos are not hard to find. Nor are dojos of people now claiming to teach ninjutsu, though they don't(Musashi ichizoku comes to mind). There are ninja shows and things like that galore.

The people in Iga who claim to teach Koga ryu are also easy to find if that is what you are looking for, one can ask at the Ninja Museum at the Iga Ueno castle or the tourist information bureau probably. The museum and most of the ninja attractions in that town were put in place by the town mayor in the 1960s, who upon visiting a koga ninja dashiki(ninja house) that had just been built, asked if he could duplicate it in Iga to promote tourism. The rest is ninja history, and the "authentic" ninja yashiki was conveniently built next to the famous castle and museum to the haiku master Basho.

 

Not saying it should be glossed over, dismissed, or ignored.

I am saying that it has been discussed in detail and done to death. I am not concerned about Gikan, Kumogakure, and Gyokushin ryu, as far as I'm concerned they are of slight interest and not full traditions in the same sense of Koto or Kukishinden ryu.

if you have done any in-depth analysis of the other ryu that Toda was supposed to have taught however, you will see that the premise that they are a mix match of various bits and pieces from other arts(including Chinese styles) is absolutely absurd. The idea that one man could create all of that from scratch is farfetched and a loooooooong reach. If it were possible, then Takamatsu sensei was much more of a martial genius than people already give him credit for and should be worshipped more than Musashi or Yoshitsune or any of the Yagyu.

Takamatsu sensei learned the arts from someone, if not Toda then who? The arts were not made up out of thin air and there is a lineage predating Toda sensei as well. So, it isn't as big a deal that information about Toda sensei seems to be missing as it sounds. His lifespan saw the Meiji Restoration(and a lot of fighting), the Sino and Russo wars, and WWII. So, if something happened to information about him, oh darn.

Takamatsu had no reason to create ninja ryu from scratch, he already was a master of two very famous samurai ryu that were quite prestigious so unless someone can come up with tangible proof of him doing so, that slander should remain on sites where intellectual integrity isn't a prerequisite for posting. It doesn't belong here on MAP.

 

not publicly

 

To be fair, Meitetsu's translation are very good, yet I am not sure how valuable they are to a layman. There is some interesting things in the books by Gingetsu Itoh, but I would suspect that only having training would reveal some of the more...hidden information.

Just like most books on the subject, reading between the lines and having reference points in one's knowledge make a huge difference to the actual content within.

 

I thought so...can't remember the details though

What always surprises me is that is is those who do not train in these arts who seem obsessed with knowing if there is proof of Toda having existed, is moslty by those who have never trained in these arts. They spend time learning what they believe is huge amounts about it without taking a much easier route...


If we show them Toda, then would they then just claim that we need to prove the previous Toda....and so on...

 

Gapjumper:

Here is the original article, which as you can see if quite old now. To be clear, Kacem did NOT disclose this. This could thus be rumor only.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?38259-Toda-Shinryuken-s-grave-has-been-found

Also, I agree with you; there seems to be no end to the requirements from those who argue the Bujinkan's authenticity (strangely, yes, mostly those who don't train in it!).

I hope this helps.

 

PR, you are lying again and now I can prove it.

Why am I not surprised. You are an anonymous coward, who has taken my own serious yet CIVIL inquiries into HISTORICAL ninjutsu and the koryu, and turned it into your personal agenda.

Please show me the links where I "went back to Bullshido to gloat about his actions here on MAP. " Because it Never Happened.

"Back to Bullshido"? I have not logged in or posted there in days, and definitely not since we had our "discussion".

I have reported your post/thread to the mods. I tried to be civil with you, but your condescension has now migrated into outright libel.

You wonder why BJKers have such a hard time selling their story regarding links between the Takamatsuden and the koryu. You are why.

Lying about someone like me who spends time on Bullshido busting MA frauds, and on MAP trying to interact well with the community....you are obviously not interested in either, but only in being an anonymous propagandist who isn't being held liable for his actions. I hope the mods ban you for spreading falsehoods, both regarding me, and Bullshido.net which is a FAR more respectable source for objective MA information than you are.

 

This looks like trolling.



"I have proof !"

And in the same post "show me the proof I claim to have!"

Is it just me who's confused by this....again?

Is this a personal grudge/agenda??? Should we all stay clear? Why are you all upset and got yor knickers in a twist?


It's just an internet discussion FGS.

 

Surely they were at some point.

 

They arrived on the back of a postcard to the Multi-Coloured SwapShop

 

No trolling is his post above, he made up a claim about me that he can't back up because it is a lie, while re-opening discussions that were just closed by two mods.

Internet discussion or not, lying about other posters should not be tolerated. I don't care what we're discussing.

Unfortunately, my attempts to get personal answers for my SERIOUS questions are hampered by someone who is a) anonymously trolling and b) lying about other posters.

If this is allowed here, why would anyone want to come to MAP for honest answers about anything, BJK or other?

 

Your super-cereal accusations of libel do seem a tad dramatic.

You could have just told us you hadn't posted on Bullshido about it.

Back on topic:

Have you read any of the books that are being discussed during your in-depth research of the BJK?

I, for one, am very glad of the productive tone of this thread so far, with actual book references and the like, almost like a civil discussion!

 

Please stop trolling and playing semantic games. What is happening now is PR writes a libelous, inflammatory post about me, badmouths Bullshido in the process (because I think he's too chicken to post there and would be required to actually verify his ranks). Now, each of you that supports him thinks I am trolling? Get real.

One person decided to actually listen to the mods, and that was me. I even sent apologies to the mods for generating controversy on MAP.

The real troll decided to step up his attacks, badmouth me, lie about me, and the purpose of Bullshido.net (where many MAP members are members as well).

I don't need anyone from the BJK to lecture me on koryu. BJK is not the authority on koryu, anyway.