Hey guys. For someone who is no longer in the org, I find my self thinking about it as much as did while I was still training in it. Anyways, does anyone know of a video compilation showing the differences between the 40 basic judo throws and the basic Bujinkan throws?(I don't remember how many there are) Considering how much I struggled with Ganseki nage, I never did manage to get past that throw. (It would be fun to actually learn it and try it in judo randori) So what are the differences between the two? The context is just to throw someone, not the reason. I don't want this to get bogged down in the battlefield vs Sport thing. Just in the context of one human throwing another. Do any of you seasoned practitioners have a favorite throw or throws? So far mine is Sasae tsurikomi ashi and o goshi.
I don't know anything about Taijutsu but I believe Taijutsu is for "combat" and Judo is for "sport". IMO, the difference between "sport" and "combat" should not be ignored. So what's the difference? When you use your right arm to wrap around your opponent's waist, you will leave your opponent's left arm free. His free left arm can punch on your head. Since in the Judo "sport", the punching is not allowed, the waist wrapping arm is used more often in move such as "hip throw (o goshi)". A good example can be seen in the following clip. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDWtRtJ23cM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDWtRtJ23cM[/ame] In "combat", you will have concern about your opponent's free arm, you will use "under hook" or "over hook" to disable your opponent's free arm when you throw him. A good example can be seen in the following clip (not sure that's Taijutsu or not). [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_DxQAVIeU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_DxQAVIeU[/ame]
I don't think getting punched is much of a threat in 0 goshi. Its so quick its unlikely, not only that, they are in NO position to make any power generation.
Except that you actually have to get to o-goshi. Someone who is unfamiliar with hand striking will have trouble setting up an o-goshi, especially if you're used to training at stiff-arm range (punching range) to set up your throws. I feel that talking about throws in complete isolation from the context and therefore the setup is a little abstract if you're comparing two different approaches.
I see your point Kurta. I was just wanting to know about mechanics, but this might be a better path. TBH though most of the judoka im training with either have striking training or are in a striking class. (karate in my case, MMA in another and on and on..) I have not seen many of the other throws of Bujinkan taijutsu, which is why I started this thread. I can get loads of judo throw videos, but very few showcasing just the taijutsu throws. I want to see a compare and contrast. However, this thread can go what ever direction it wants. Lets assume our intrepid hero has made it past what ever strike has come at him and either by luck or skillfull blocking/maneuvering has found him self in position for a throw. Lets start from the assumption the thrower has basic strike defense.
I'm sure the guy in the second clip will tell you that's taijutsu and he's a personal student of X- shihan, however it's a far cry from what I've seen and done. Edit: surprise surprise; "As a result, throughout the years, his Dojo has been known as a place of true martial and spiritual teachings. Sensei Mark, now a 6th Degree Black Belt, having studied many styles, brought in many techniques, philosophies, and strategies from these other styles. He journeyed to the heart of traditional martial arts learning, in Japan, to study Ninjutsu (Ninpo), becoming a direct personal student under world famous Grandmaster Tanemura, Shoto for over 13 years." Tanemura sensei must be so proud
This discussion can start from 2 starting points. 1. Get a list of all taijutsu throws. 2. Start from a list of all Judo throws (This is easy to find: http://judoinfo.com/animate.htm). Remove throws that's not in taijutsu and come up with a final list for taijutsu throws. The discussion can then concentrate on the "compare and contrast". IMO, a throw is a throw. There is a correct way and wrong way to execute a throw. There is no such thing as Judo throw vs. taijutsu throw.
I agree and think that mechanics should be a higher priority in many schools and discussions. It's just that context has a direct impact on the mechanics of a given technique. You might look into Takagi Yoshin ryu. AFAIK it's still skewed towards arm-joint-based takedowns (kind of important if you expect to be fighting over a sword or knife) but you may find more comparable hipthrows, trips and shoulder throws there than the other schools.
I am not totally sure about the mechanics, yet I have been told and shown by my teacher that there are marked technical differences in the way throws and other techniques are executed in Taijutsu (and other koryu jujutsu for that matter) and in Judo (and other modern arts). This may be one of the reasons why there is so much crappy Taijutsu out there, people see a technique and think "Oh that is just the same as technique so and so" and do not dig deep enough to learn the specific body mechanics of Taijutsu. And training Ninjutsu and Judo at the same time, I can say that the way the body is used in modern day Judo and in Ninjutsu is very different, even if certain techniques may look the same or have the same name. I could see that being an evolution in Judo though, the mechanics may have been the same "back in the day" when Judo was just created. Regards, Tom.
I'd imagine the biggest difference is scoring for ippon. Some judo throws can put you in a bad position, but will still score a win. Whereas you need to be in a dominant position or still standing for actual combat.
I was always taught that in a judo throw , the attacker can roll or break fall , in the throw , but in ninjutsu the throws were more of a " pick them up and dump them hard to break something "
Also isn't it the case in the taijutsu the attacker throws themselves rather than you throwing them, in some of the schools anyway. Being thrown being the lesser of the two evils, of the pain caused by joint locks etc. rather than leverage around balance points ( excuse my limited judo knowledge if that's not the case)
No. In judo you breakfall because it hurts les than not breakfalling. The throw itself has little to do with it.
Difficult question... No favorite throws. Judoka are very good throwers and I would put my money on them over the average Takamatsuden aficionado. However, the people who do know how to do and use the throws found in the Takamatsuden are not people you would want to throw you.
From what I am reading, ykw there is a difference between a judo throw and a taijutsu throw. Which means that there is a judo throw and a BBT throw. Why remove any judo throws at all? That makes no sense.
PR. im not trying to learn the actual throws . I just want to see a compare or contrast. If Ganseki nage is so dangerous why is it taught early to newbs who can barely roll or fall correctly.. I don't see it as remotely dangerous... Its just another forward throw..
My question PR is should I have to purchase anything? Why isn't it on the net like every other throwing arts throws? Thank you for the brief overview of your systems throwing method. This notion of a sliding motion and a cutting motion on the leg sounds interesting. What are some examples of this?
You did write the above right? Ganseki, depending on the version, is not just another forward throw. It is meant to mess up the other guy and throw him down hard. The real applications aren't very often taught, especially not to newbies. The way people do it with their hands up in the air like a bank robbery is not really ganseki, but I digress. You cannot learn ganseki nage from a video, even if it was a very good one. As you apparently don't have access to one, it is a moot point but curiosity is one thing, I don't think it fun to play around with techniques I barely know and try them out in randori(tandoori perhaps). If you want to see the throws, you have to look for a place where they can be found. It isn't on the net because it isn't. Your wishing it was won't change that and if you want to see all of the throws demonstrated correctly, you will have to look for something coming out of Japan. That's just the way it is. I have only seen a very small bit of the videos from the other Xkans and I don't know if they are for purchase to the general public, but it was just an idea. If one is really interested, they will seek something out. The sliding motion can be found in ganseki otoshi, the cutting version in the ashirai, and both in the kata in they ryu. Takagi and Shinden Fudo have different ways of throwing, somewhat different from Koto or Gyokko ryu for example. Kukishin is more simple and rough, but all arts include using the arms and joints to throw, not just relying on gripping the body. We also don't rely on lifting up the opponent and carrying their weight to throw in many cases. I described some of the differences, but I'm not interested in taking the time and effort to go over all the throws and contrast them to throws from other arts online. Maybe someone else might want to.
Actually Pr that was very helpful. I understand a 100 move rundown might be a bit excessive. However I did enjoy learning about the overview of it you gave. Aye I did say that above, about trying it in randori. LOL I see your point. I guess part of me still doesn't understand the bank robbery pose you talked about. I had seen it in my own brief training and I don't see how its applicable, unless its some kind of training vehicle not intended to actually be used but to teach concepts. Either way, thanks!
Theres a lot more focus on Gi grips in judo, and whilst there is use of the Gi in the xkan, the variety and counter gripping strategies are missing. Another thing thats different is that xkan throws use heavy balance breaking and only a little 'pike and spin' that Judoka do that, sacrifices there balance for drive, although sutemi waza do exist. And as many throws take into consideration striking, a lot of them involve a penetration step between the line of Uke's legs as the initial entry, judo is a lot more about pulling them on you before the spin entry. PS most BJKN teachers cant throw at all, look at jinenkan and genbukan videos for a decent comparison
