A different perspective on sport vs self defence

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Ben Gash CLF, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    An interesting perspective from history
    https://youtu.be/bfcpyMdEwzM
    You often hear combat sports people disparaging certain applications saying "that never happens" and it's true, in combat sports settings it doesn't happen, but in actual violence personal experience (and a quick visit to the darker corners of YouTube) suggests that it happens all the time (OK, some stuff really never happens).
    So then it comes down to focus and aims. If you solely focus on HAOV you're not going to develop the skills for one on one combat against a skilled opponent, but if you solely focus on that it can create a mental complacency which can catch you out if your opponent breaks fight logic.
    As Matt says, I believe that development as a martial artist requires both.
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Meh. It can be hard to fight someone with no training, but the outcome is almost always the more skilled person still winning. I think the problem with that guys argument is that he's dealing with swords which can easily kill with one blow.
     
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, I saw that video yesterday.

    The aspect I thought he missed was that intent and intensity can overwhelm technical finesse unless you prepare for that in your training. He kind of got closer to that point near the end when he talked about the fencing master test where you had to fight different skill levels.

    The main complaint I hear about untrained people is their unpredictability, but honestly there are only so many ways people can move, so if you're surprised by how a person moves I would suspect that to be due to a gap or overspecialisation in the training.
     
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    For real people are easily knocked out with one blow, and that's before you take force multipliers into account.
     
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    1. You've got to hit them first
    2. If you're trained in unarmed combat you can learn to take a punch. You can't learn to take a blade to the skull.
     
  6. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Both of those responses show sport centric thinking though, you're assuming you'll be expecting /will see the punch and be set up to take a punch.
    Even within sports fighting this is a somewhat flawed approach though. Is Chris Leben a better striker than Wanderlei Silva?
     
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i have to say, it really is hard to fight someone with zero training. just got on the mat with a gentleman that had never done bjj, but was just a really strong guy. it actually took awhile to figure out the way to winning. we take things like strength for granted sometimes.
     
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    That's dealing with awareness and thus not related to self defence. The guy in the video was also talking about one vs one in an agreed duel. He was not talking about awareness or self defence.
     
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah for sure, size and strength count for a lot, but the guy in the original video was not talking about size or strength. Just about the unskilled vs skilled.
     
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Did you really just say awareness is not related to self defence?
    Trying to draw broader themes from the illustration.
     
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think the thing that often throws people is how the untrained can have tension in all places at all times. After training with people who use their bodies more efficiently it can make some techniques rather different in feel. Everything can feel more awkward when the person you're fighting is all awkward.

    On a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if the muscle relaxant properties of alcohol actually increase striking power in the untrained.
     
  12. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    this was my experience. it had been a long time since i rolled with someone like that--literally a "first day". i wanted to tell the guy "dude, chill out". he was so tense everywhere. eventually i just used it against him. but it took a bit for me to adjust.
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, rather than flowing into counters you have to be a lot sharper. Once you get your head around it I think it's easier, because they won't flow around what you're doing and that actually makes effects somewhat more predictable.

    I think it's really good to keep reminding yourself of what it feels like to spar really inexperienced people.

    It's another way that teachers learn twice!
     
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Apparently I did. I meant to say "that's to do with awareness and thus not much to do with duelling/fighting one on one". Sorry, typing faster than I'm thinking. I've had a bad day :/
     
  15. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I think that is something we can all agree with.
     
  16. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    You may not swing first. He might (or she - with he blindsiding, maybe.)
    And
    If you can take a full-blooded punch in the throat, a forehead to the nose or temple, a foot or knee to the groin, and overarm (long hook) to the jaw/temple, thumb in the eye, then you must be very tough indeed.
    Much SD is not about one to one, and when it is - as in some numpty squaring up to a bouncer (assuming their respective mates stay back) - there is as much, or more psychology, misdirection and awareness in play as sheer fighting ability.
    And the skills necessary to deal with stupid, naked aggression also have to be honed in ways that are not necessarily practiced much in sports training.
     
  17. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The original article is has a specified rule set of duelling of which both parties are fully aware what they committed to. We are not talking about self defence or being blindsided.
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If your chin is tucked a throat strike is unlikely to get through, good head position from wrestling makes you hard to headbut, ive been caught plenty in the groin, theyre not fight enders plus if you control the clinch, it won't have any power, learning to take a punch is definitely in sport training too.

    There's more to SD then fighting, but a competant sports (standup clinch & ground) guy will wreck a pure SD guy 7 out of 8 times, every time.
     
  19. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    That depends on how it's delivered. I can sneak one through unless your chin is literally to chest.
     
  20. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    with power too? is that also assuming that one's arms are nowhere near to defend?
     

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