Value of "bad" martial arts?

Thing is the only way to get nutrition in a mcdonalds these days is to eat the wrapper it comes in and then the furniture.

Yea bad martial arts will get you fit, but might also get you beleiving that you are fighting machine , when in fact you are not. So I guess something being better than nothing is true. But you have to keep your head on your shoulders and the problem is that many who attend these places dont.

 

*Looks at post while biting into second Big Mac in a row.*

 

Because they're getting what they want. Same as McDonald's. They know it's not the best for them. But it fulfills other "needs" of theirs. In the case of a "McDojo" (a term I hate, by the way), they might be getting their socialization needs met. They might be getting some exercise. Etc.

Just because they aren't getting the benefits WE feel are important doesn't mean they aren't getting the things THEY value.

 

Although I feel the greatest scorn poured on bad schools is when the people think they are getting what they want when really they aren't.
Often because they have a false idea of what getting what they want is actually like.

That's the mark of a Mcdojo for me.
Not the money, or marketing or training per se.
But the false pretence that they are teaching people to fight or defend themselves when they really aren't.
I don't think anyone really minds people doing martial arts for social or exercise reasons SO LONG AS THOSE REASONS ARE CLEAR.

It's the training for one thing but really getting another that is the problem IMHO.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly that schools ought to be clear and honest about what they're providing. That said, I think more people know than they let on. I'm not convinced that people are as convinced of their own skills as they outwardly express. People defend their own practice to others (curiously), even when they have their own doubts. But they make decisions based on how badly they want to change their agenda. I don't believe that most people, in this day and age, have cause to change a training opportunity in which they're comfortable. Even if they experience doubts about its efficacy.

 

Well, that's the value of places like this. I don't expect schools to necessarily be open about these things because 1) the people involved may not have that insight themselves, 2) it's not in their business interests to say that, etc. But as a forum, we have an opportunity to do that kind of education minus the agenda. So we can make people aware of the possibility that what they're learning isn't delivering. But their direct experience of bad martial arts is still what will refine their sense of good martial arts once their awareness is raised.

 

Dirty boy. Do that and it'll fall off. Wait...what?

 

No. It's like saying that there's value to being bad at sex, because that experience will help you identify how to be good at sex. And thank God for that. If we were all condemned to repeat the awkwardness of our first experiences, it would surely spell the doom of the human race.

Nonsense. That was like the Citizen Kane of analogies. (See what I did there?)

 

Maybe...I've had so many eye-brow raising moments though (the reverse punch can shatter the sternum and send shards back through the heart!) that perhaps I'm jaded?
I go, occasionaly, to an aerobic martial arts workout class.
I know that it isn't teaching self defence in any way, shape or form that I would consider proper self defence.
But because it's a bit kicky and punchy I also know there are quite a few women that go that think they are becoming some sort of badass (I've heard them say as much).
Now while the instructor doesn't market or push this class as self defence he doesn't stress that it isn't that either (as you mentioned above).

IMHO the only answer is to be a knowledgable teacher and be absolutely honest and up-front about what you can or can't teach.

 

Yes.

From what I've read, the arsenic content of the apple slices is just low enough to be safe.

 

I apply here the same approach that I apply to tabloid newspapers.

"Buyer beware should not be the ethic of an industry that's function is to make you aware in the first place."

Even if you're not actively mis-leading people, as someone who distributes information you should be aware of the way in which you can mislead people if you don't give them the full story.

If you teach a room of 30 people how to do various kicks and punches for an aerobic workout... and none of them have any kind of notion of what pragmatic self defense training should look like... it isn't really a stretch to see how someone could get the wrong impression about how that training could be used in other contexts unless you actually say "this is just a workout, self defense is something else".

 

Except it's possible that because of not just the exercise but sparring, pre arranged partner drills or certain types of drills (if there are any) is also a massive confidence builder if you actually get into it, even bad sparring at bad clubs.

+1.

True story, an old karate instructor of mine and I had an argument over what he was doing with the students in the club I was training at (yeah, I was a student there for a while, I didn't know any better) and the fact his actions clearly contradicted what he said he wanted or what he considered "good Karate" over and over again. He tried to argue that because he "only just got his black belt when he was suggested by his instructor to become an instructor" that he didn't have as much experience as he wanted and therefore I should take it easy on him.

My response was that if he really felt that way he should have become a student with another club for longer before becoming an instructor and that he should never have put himself in a situation where he started teaching others, even if he was a former national champ of Namibia for one year 10 years prior.

Yes/no.

The physical benefits are undeniable as are some mental benefits. But the risk of developing overconfidence in your abilities and a grossly exaggerated idea of what contributes good MA/SD/MMA/etc is massive.

Definite swings and roundabouts.

From my experiences I wouldn't be so sure about this personally. I've met plenty of students who have never experienced training at other clubs or dojos who started at a bad one and genuinely think that what they are getting is the real deal and hang onto the word of their instructors like it is law.

Afterall, there are very few people who would want to think that their time, effort, dedication, sweat and tears (for example) was "wasted" at a crap club with an instructor who sounds knowledgeable and confident, but in reality doesn't know their peck from their backside.

That's true.

 

In the ancient "golden years" of martial arts, if you studied at a "bad" school" or learned "bad" technique, your bad technique probably died with you in the dirt when you tried to use it.

Today, the worst that usually happens is you lose a match, get choked to sleep, or get a black eye, busted rib, or similar contusions. Nobody dies nowadays to prove how bad their training was. That was the old metric by which martial arts were held: surviving fights = your training is pretty good.

When you compare the risks of poor martial arts training THEN and NOW, it clear that NOW, the signal to noise ratio is so much lower. There are MORE schools than ever, but the risks are lesser than ever in history, requiring little in the way of validating a school's practices. They could be good, or crap...who really knows until literally push comes to shove.

So, knowing such a low signal to noise ratio exists...the study of martial arts becomes more important than ever. And not just study of one style's techniques...study of them all, and how to identify good training from utter ridiculousness.

This is why people who have studied only one art, or who adamantly oppose studying multiple arts for "purity" reasons, are so misguided. They forget one of most important martial lessons of them all: know your enemy.

Bad martial art/training exists so that we know what good martial art/training looks like. Without bad martial arts we could never know...

 

Yum fiber.....but is it good nutrition (or hardcore fighting per martial arts) that McDonald's and McDojos are trying to provide.

Per something from one of my post. If they don't know, they will never stop going

But for a MCDojo, it maybe worse. With McDonald's, they have a nutritional chart. Most people know its is not par excellence nutrition. They want the food fast. Same as a McDojo-they want the belt-rank fast.

This is how the First Lady thinks about fast food nutrition. She was looking to step in. Indeed, everyone has the right to be at a McDojo, if that is what they desire. Afterall, the only time WE say anything, is WHEN someone come here and toots their horn on how "DEADLY or AWESOME" their ART is

Thus people need to research and educate themselves on what actually they are paying for. (Like McDonald's...you want a fast greasy fatty hamburger, then that's what you get...what you paid for. No use looking at the burger and looking at the picture of the burger thinking you are getting a good deal

But a lot of bad schools-McDojo are in it for money, which ok. But they, especially those instructors with ego, tend to over sell themselves

Most people are in a state of bliss upon their first school. No one desires to be told that their school, or what they are doing is bad

Terrible sex? How can it be terrible? After the first, do again "for practice" McDojo isn't like having good or bad sex....if it is about defense it should be like (safe sex-common sense sex) :evil:

Or if someone else was better than you...not that you had a bad method

But is every martial art out there today about "survival fighting?

We can compare. The people who study something bad may not. Is it us to decide what is bad for them?

Again, some people will never know if they are studying something bad.

Not really. Others study martial arts apart from fighting

And again, people who study something bad (as we may believe) for their belief and what they desire-its good enough for them


How can any judge what is "bad" for another person? Someone can say "cigarette smoking is bad". But for smokers, (like eating McDonalds and McDojos) people are not concerned what is "bad". Some rather DO What They Want, and Desire not to hear from others what they (do) is bad

People can only help/suggest to others WHEN they are ready for advice or WHEN they ASK for it

 

Sure but specific to his original question, we're in the context of bad instruction, not better/worse.

I think most bill themselves that way. Most schools sell a "self defense" angle, no matter what the actual art is. Those types of schools are far more numerous and in demand than modern combat sports/competition-based training schools, especially prior to 1993, when the latter were rare especially in the US.

If it's obviously bad, by objective standards, a martial artist might consider it an obligation to speak out, especially if "what is bad" is for a friend you care about.

What's more important, being impartial, advising a friend not to take part in McDojo or Bullshido?

They won't if we don't help them.

Know thy enemy applies outside fighting, old sport.

Are we to leave the hopelessly deluded to their own devices, charlatans, and thieves when it comes to martial arts?

I disagree. I think that sometimes a friend speaks out before they're asked for advice.

 

God damn this is absolutely on the money.