Sex sells, unfortunately.

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Simon, Dec 25, 2016.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Frodocious recently posted this...

    And this is good news and progress is being made, however, I have an issue with some of the poses and pictures used by female fighters on their own social media sites.

    I'm interested to know if pictures such as one where an athlete may have a thumb in their underwear pulling it down slightly is holding back other women from training because of body image issues.

    We follow Maria Lopez on Instagram and I think she has the correct balance.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BOTiDISBER90RH8SYQcwwzXlFRRPP6dolrOv5Q0/?taken-by=marialopezatx

    We also follow Princess Of Iron who posts pictures of her development without being overtly sexual.

    https://www.instagram.com/princessofiron/

    Felice Herrig is an example of someone we stopped following as I felt some of her pictures didn't portray the same values we have.

    Ronda Rousey has plenty of pictures without a top and just her hands covering her breasts and I am not sure how this looks to either a young girl, or older woman.

    Is the balance about right, is there more to do, are there still issues I've not mentioned and are some of these pictures holding back progress in other areas.
     
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Felice Herrig really crosses a line for me that I think is quite detrimental and a step in the wrong direction. That is exactly why I root against her every fight, even though she seems like a nice person otherwise.

    Ronda is an interesting question. I don't like some of her poses. On the other hand she offers something quite valuable. She has loudly and fiercely proclaimed that a female having strong/ big musculature is indeed to be considered feminine and "sexy." And she makes a point to say her being in shape has to do with function, not just how she appears. And that is a very good message.

    And while there is a huge disproportionate bias towards judging women on their looks, it does need to be mentioned that good looking charismatic men do get treated better- get more sponsorship's and all. While women are heading in the right direction, I think men are heading in the wrong direction with this.
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'd like to run a class next year that is female only.

    I think there is mileage is a class that does all of the boxing / kickboxing training, but without the sparring.

    It'll be all the conditioning and padwork.

    Picking a name is difficult and I was discussing it on Facebook earlier in the week.

    One of my female students posted how it was interesting how a bunch of guys were discussing what to call a female only class.

    She could have made her own suggestion though.
     
  4. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Why do you feel a need to have a female only class that excludes sparring? Isn't there a message right there to women? Would you set up a similar class excluding sparring for men?

    Don't mean to be critical, but the question does deserve asking I think.

    I think women have to overcome societal conditioning sometimes when it comes to martial arts. And if the expectation/ bar is not changed for them, I think they rise to it.

    My instructor is female. and she talks about the sexism she fights from society. For example, she doesn't let women students get away with knee push ups only. Which is what others have done. She sees it as a way that the bar is set lower for women. She has other ways that women can build up to push ups if they can't do them right away.

    When grappling was new to my school, another female instructor started a female only grappling class. The idea was to get women comfortable with the idea of grappling, the ones that had some trepidation about it. But it was always seen as a way to introduce women to mixed grappling. The idea never even took off.

    There is a balancing act between acknowledging real issues, but not setting the bar lower than it need be. Along a similar note, this happens with instructors and us older MAists. I see some fellow students where, frankly, I think the instructors don't push the students as hard as they could, due to their age. My instructor pushes me. (She has a reputation for being one of the hardest instructors, and she earned it.) She pushes me to kick head height, and because she didn't settle for less, I CAN do some head high kicks. I feel like her pushing me to kick higher on side kicks is tough, but I know she sees the potential in me to do better and isn't giving up or settling for me. Now, she does acknowledge some issues limit me. My bad knees and kneeling horse stances for example. My instructor didn't settle for me and I am so much the better for it. I see some other instructors not pushing for height from some other older students, and I see how their kicks don't get higher.

    I use this because it is a very tangible way of showing my point. But my instructor does the same thing with female students and martial intent and power. My school's philosophy is the same for men and women, but honestly, I do see a few instructors that maybe don't push their female students as hard as they could to have this intent. It isn't as tangible, so it is hard to say. But I know my instructor makes a serious point of it, and it shows in the quality of her students. (Ha, me probably being her worse student! And she would not be happy that I just said that either.)

    I think sometimes one has to maybe introduce women to sparring more carefully, nurture the idea differently. Because societal conditioning is different for women and their approach to fighting. But one has to be careful to not go too far. Ultimately, the goal should be the same.

    Simon, I don't teach, I am only a student. But the idea of a women's only class not having sparring because it is a women's only class causes me concern. It is setting the bar differently for women. And unless there is part of the picture I am missing, I don't think that is the way to go with women's classes. Starting off that way fine, but the ultimate goal? I would urge you to reconsider.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Very good question.

    Talking with John Titchen and other friends over the last few days I've mentioned that there aren't the youth clubs available today that there once were and it's because of the CRB checks and general suspicion around adults and children.

    I think MMA offers the pack/club/gang mentality and sense of worth many of the young are seeking today and that carries over into the adult world.

    Too many miss or don't continue with fitness classes because their friend stops going.
    The pack mentality isn't there and I feel that smaller classes of up to maybe 12 people will offer that mentality.

    That sense of worth and belonging whatever size, shape or fitness level is something I hope to be able to offer and there is no reason it can't be made available to the guys.

    I want to offer something though in the first instance to those who want to train, but not in a class with guys, or even a mixed class, which mine is.
     
  6. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I just edited my previous post to add more thoughts, to clarify.

    Listen, if you knew me when I began, I was such a wimp with sparring! My school overall, but especially my Sifu and my instructor, slowly turned me into a completely different person with regards to fighting.

    When I tell new students, more often female, to just keep with it, and I started out the same way, nervous about sparring. They don't even believe I started out that way. It takes the one or two older students who knew me back then to confirm it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  7. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Did I you figure out a name? I can't find the FB discussion.
     
  8. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I feel there's definitely a market for this kind of class judging by the amount of boxercise lessons and the like.
    And surely , someone like Simon is ideal , as if the ladies feel like they do want to experience sparring , he can offer that in his "normal" class.
     
  9. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'll send you the link via FB, rather than pimp my stuff here.

    That said Hannibal has a female only Kickboxing class called the Shield Maidens and I wanted to keep along the same lines, so something like HAVOC Valkeries.

    It has a Viking warrior history, is positive and strong, has the pack mentality and avoids anything like HAVOC Vixens, which although I like the name could paint the wrong picture.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The idea is to give an environment where skills can be learned without the pressures and fears of a full class and they can graduate to train with the regular classes if they wish

    This allows those who want fitness to still train , those who are afraid to join a regular class to get exposure and allows entry level to a group that traditionally and erroneously are told that they shouldn't do these things

    How this make s you feel as a practicing martial artist who happens to be female is understandable...But it isn't aimed at you anymore than boxercise is aimed at competitive fighters
     
  11. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Thanks.

    Maybe this is obvious and I honestly have no idea what MA classes are called in the UK, but they often advertise classes without sparring (but proper training, not boxercise) as technical or technique classes here.

    A lot of places have them and they are well attended by both men and women alike. Not everyone can spar, wants to or cares about being a vigilante or ninja. And you also get people who attend the regular classes but want to work on their technique a little more or are working around an injury or something turning up.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I hate this can't do, shouldn't do attitude with a passion.

    It's like my hatred of the term ordinary members of the public, where we are made to feel that there are those above us. :bang:

    Out with friends yesterday and one of the guys came along for a few classes, got some light hits and stopped coming.

    He suffers with anxiety, is unfit and overweight and he told me he really wants to come back.

    A no sparring or contact class would suit him well until he has the confidence in himself to step into the main class.

    Guys have body image and confidence issues too, but I bet it's worse for women.

    This thread is to try and understand that a bit more.
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Good point, so the attendees are called one thing, but what to call and promote the classes as.

    Hope no-one feels this is an advert for anything I'm doing, because that isn't the aim.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    When Morrigan conceived the classes she was insistent that the correct application was taught so it was skill based and have something of value and worth

    Now although she does not spar in the class she does use the drills I teach that are panantukan variants so the principles of applied pressure at actually still there, it's just they are hidden...."the brocolli in the chocolate" as Vu used to say
     
  15. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    That I have no idea. :)

    Sorry - not the best help, just trying to give you some insight into the class structure here in bigger, more established clubs where they usually have three classes (boxing, technical boxing, boxercise) and it seems to be successful and work well.

    They usually have a family class too...but that's for another thread.
     
  16. Pearlmks

    Pearlmks Valued Member

    Didn't GSP once say that the only reason he was currently going to the gym was to look better for sponsors?
     
  17. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Re: a name for Simon's female-only class - why not just "Havoc" but with the o being the female symbol?

    That way it negates having other terms that might put off certain personalities/tastes.
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Clever idea, thank you.
     
  19. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I, personally, object to some of the overtly sexual imagery that women in sports seem to have to agree to if they want sponsers/media coverage. T-Nation is very guilty of this. The pictures of women seem to revolve round the classic 'stick out your bum' glute shot or the fingers in the bikini bottoms shot. If a club did advertise it's classes with those sorts of pictures, I would be very unlikely to train there. However, I suspect that the provocative female poses used are really not intended to attract women to sports! I also really object to the use of ring 'girls', even more so for female fights.

    I will say that my above quote about the Nike mannequins with quads was not followed by the rest of the displays in the shop. They were all the standard stick thin types, unfortunately. :(

    I'm torn on women only classes. On the one hand, if they provide a more comfortable environment for women to start training and allow them to gain the basic skills before progressing to the mixed classes, then I can see they have a place. I do worry a little that they could send out the wrong message to women though - that they have no place in the regular classes.

    I would love to find a non-sparring class to work technique and pads, only because my eyesight issues prevent me from sparring. I wonder whether, rather than having it as female only, it could be a mixed class but with a female instructor or 2 instructors, 1 male and 1 female?
     
  20. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    The ones I've seen are mixed and I am thinking of going to them myself. Sparring might be a little heavy for me 'cause of my Crohn's disease, heavy exercise...or something about getting hit....makes me feel super nauseous and like I am getting flu or a fever. Admittedly I need to experiment a little more, but experimenting and getting sick is hardly something to look forward to.

    I certainly think there is a place for these type of classes.
     

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