Proper On Guard Position in Sparring

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Zeek805, Oct 12, 2016.

  1. Zeek805

    Zeek805 New Member

    Now I know that this may vary across styles, but what is your preferred on-guard stance when sparring?

    Do you use an open fist? Traditional boxing stance? How are your arms/hands positioned?

    I've been getting conflicting information on the proper position of the arms and hands, specifically.
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Depends on the style. Generally speaking, hand high, chin down, and light on the front foot.

    Grappling arts are of course, different.
     
  3. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Depends on what style of striking I'm using, which tactics, if I'm doing specific sparring for self defence practice or sparring under a sport rule set, whether I want to mix in more or less strikes using the legs, engage or avoid, what range I'm engaging at, whether I want to use more or less trapping...etc.

    Maybe you could give some idea of what specifically you're trying to do so you can be pointed better in the right direction? For instance which style of kung fu do you practice? What kind of correction have you received from your Sifu? What rule set are you sparring under?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  4. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    What does your sifu teach you?

    What do you stand in when drilling?

    Generally speaking hands up, chin down, torso slightly hunched/locked in, elbows in.
     
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Just to add: you should be sparring in the same 'stance' you do your other training in. If you don't/can't then something is probably very amiss with the material you are being shown.
     
  6. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Well, you should be able to anyway. I can use wing chun techniques from various guards just fine.
     
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    "Fists locked in, and touch your brim", I heard that somewhere once, it made sense.

    Seriously though, this is often described as "one hand high, one hand low, one hand long, one hand short" in the kung fu circles I've danced. Be ready at all positions ("gates"/"doors"), at all times, for attack.

    It doesn't have to be a fist per se, open hands ready to grab work just fine.
     
  8. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    In hung ga there is no single on guard position. There are two principle approaches, square (includes 3/4) and side on.

    SQUARE ON GUARD :With square it depends on the range and what you are trying to achive. At long range the guard is an extend triangle the base being across the shoulders and the point in front of the body on the mid line. It is very good for deflecting incoming straight line attacks (think white crane) . As the range decreases the triangle shortens ( think win Chung), then as range shortens even more it retreats a high boxing guard becoming less triangular, more circular and better suited to countering short range circular strikes such as hooks.

    SIDE ON :Sifu Onassis Parungao Subitai demonstrating how to use a side on Horse stance guard to bridge at range and open up the opponent.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0_H4vW-9_w"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0_H4vW-9_w[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    For most usage, I tend to stand fairly straight, with some bend in my knees, with one leg back (to turn a more 3/4 view to my opponent). If I happen to have a weapon, I have the lag back that is on the same side as my weapon

    My hands are up and open with my palms facing outward (elbows tucked, with fingertips around eye height). I do my best to look non-aggressive (especially for any witnesses or cameras that are about) and may vocalize that 'I don't want to fight' or 'Please leave me alone'.

    Once we enter the attacking phase (or sparring starts), I tend to keep the same style of stance, but do close my hands (unless the level of force allows me to grab for a lock or throw).

    EDIT - disclaimer... not a student of Kung Fu and didn't realize the forum until I had responded.
     
  10. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Thomas. the elbow and hand positions you describe are very common in kung fu guards. Regarding hands,When you say your palms are out ward do you mean vertical 90 degrees to the floor ? (almost never seen in kung fu), or do you mean at an angle e.g palms and fore arms at around 45 degrees to the floor? (frequently seen, often referred to as snake or cranes wing hands).

    When making the "i dont want to fight" fence i personally advise students to use the palms facing in ward "thinking man" guard rather than palms facing out. Palms facing out can be read as a submissive " please dont hit me" gesture and might therefore encourage an attacker looking for an easy victim
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  11. Zeek805

    Zeek805 New Member

    Thank you for the reply.

    I practice Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut. My biggest confusion is hand and arm position. I see some students with a typical boxer stance, while others have open hands. Some people overextend their lead arm while holding their other arm closer to their chest. My Sifu corrected my arm position to hold my right arm lower than my chin, almost in line with my chest.

    From reading others posts, it seems like the generally accepted sparring stance is very similar to a traditional boxing stance.
     
  12. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I think you're describing one of the 12 bridges that is sometimes taught as a sort of defensive "guard" stance, but usually only in training. Lam Sai Wing in this picture is showing the "reserved bridge", but you'll see this same position with the rear fist in the armpit (where it would actually strike from...you'd rarely or never strike from the waist). Your sifu might have corrected you because punching comes from the armpit, generally, so the point of moving your right hand there was not so much guard related as it was putting your fist in the right spot to attack from.

    This is not a "fighting position", it's a bridge taught and used in most of the Hung gar fist sets (it's in the middle of the Gung Gi Fook Fu, but often learned prior to that as a standalone drill) However, there's a famous Youtube fight video with it, and you can also catch it in some movies like Bloodsport. From the lips of my own Sifu to you: "don't try that in the street, you'll get killed". Obviously there are exceptions, but generally, "locking in" like this is discouraged by every sifu I've encountered.

    [​IMG]

    Well it's more like the traditional boxing stance AND southpaw style fit in fine with Hung gar techniques (Hung gar is an ambidextrous style). There's nothing wrong with them, especially when you consider most Hung gar strikes are delivered in with the "Bow and arrow" or gi ng ma stance, which is extremely similar to how boxers deliver an orthodox or southpaw right or overhand, with the exception that you don't lift your rear heel in Hung gar to get extra power (you could, but it's taught preserving the root and balance is more important, so you practice keeping your rear heel planted)

    The key idea here is stance transition....staying in one static stance is never, ever the right thing to do. Constantly shifting stances is how power is delivered, balance maintained, attacks avoided, and so on. Only in the movies will you see Hung gar being robotic or static, to see real Hung gar in action just watch Sifu O's UFC and MMA fights.

    Remember, Hung gar is not just standup boxing, so the "gates" or "doors" that need to be protected cover not only the body and head but head to toe. This requires a far more flexible and dynamic 'stance' than the ones common in boxing, BUT if someone is headhunting you with only punches to the face, then the boxing-style guards make sense. BUT, lock in to that stance, and you've left doors open... they can attack your lower gates.

    In reality, of the hundreds of techniques in Hung gar a good percentage of them involve protecting the head and face, or maintaining distance; again the concept is to defend as many "gates" as possible at all times, usually with at least one hand always near the head. This is why Tom is 100% right there's no "one guard", in general, the style teaches you to keep your hands up, and defending yourself from various angles, especially towards your noggin.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  13. Zeek805

    Zeek805 New Member

    Iron Fist, your reply is very helpful. Thank you.
     
  14. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    the first guard position we teach is a square on cat stance, the lead hand matches the lead leg. The lead hand is open with the finger tips at nose height. It is positioned on the mid line. the rear "power" hand is open and protects at heart height with the finger tips just bellow the voice box. It is also positioned on the mid line.

    In use the top half defends the top half and the bottom half defends the bottom half. All kicks below the waist are counterd by tucking the lead leg which then counter attacks. The lead hand defends the horizontal axis - left / right. The rear hand defends the vertical axis up/down.

    It is stressed that this guard is a starting position and is only effective at longer range. But it provides a sensible, structured, place to start.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I keep my elbows tucked and at more than 90 degrees wide (so they are harder to collapsed inward on me if pushed or hit). Palms face forward at that same angle

    I agree and use the more submissive appearance in the hope of de-escalating. Plus, it keeps my hands and fingers forward for a chance to grab (at lower levels of force)
     
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Taking a recent example of fence to clarify what I mean.

    My "I dont want to fight" fence (palms out) is basically talking with the hands but in a high guard. like you see the instructor doing around 30 seconds in. although my hands would be around chest height not down. The position the instructor calls the fence I would call a " I dont want a fight but I am ready if you start one" fence. It is an escalation in body language it is clearly assertive but it is not aggressive.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdAXRkOc3Zo"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdAXRkOc3Zo[/ame]


    Not wanting to cross post more on this on the SPEAR Moaning thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  17. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Thanks Tom these are both a good examples of the Hung gar "one hand high, one hand low, one hand long, one hand short" concept. If you take the number of basic and advanced stances, combine it with the various short and long techniques, you get a lot of different combinations, but all follow this principle of fluidity and "covering the bases". I hate baseball analogies but I sometimes use infield/outfield coverage to describe the Hung gar "gates" to sports types (it works...). The general idea is to deploy your players (hands, feet) in such a way as to cover wherever might be ball is hit in a moment, in order to field the ball with the least movement and make the best play possible (bridge, counterattack). Makes sense right? Sometimes a modern way of looking at something classical like this is just right for the person you're trying to explain it to. "Gates", "doors", "bridges" works fine for some people, others get it when you talk baseball :D

    You also see the "single finger bridge" all over kung fu, used like in your second video, as a sort of "distance keeper" (if not quite "Don't fight me, bro"..a bit more aggressive :D) I find it particularly interesting how something as seemingly minor as an index finger makes a difference when sparring...almost like a rangefinder, in a way, if you know what I mean. By using the distance of your index finger from tip to first knuckle (about 1" on my hand), you can kind of measure the distance to something else. At least that's my perspective...nothing I was taught formally.

    Also works like a warning....why is this guy pointing his finger up at the sky? Looks like a big exclamation point, if you've ever been on the receiving end you know what I mean :D Alarm bells go off in my head.

    In your pic the various gates are all covered, the lead leg is "false"/"empty (the formal name of cat stance, diu ma). But you and I both know this is just a snapshot... that the next transition from that exact stance and 'guard', into a completely difference stance and position, happens in the blink of an eye (for example Fierce Tiger techniques...someone dives for your legs in diu ma, you're going to want to sprawl into the right stance...this one isn't it, and those open palms will have to become tiger claws or something more appropriate).
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  18. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    EDIT: Oops didn't see this was in the kung fu forum--I have no kung fu experience.

    I think my stance is slightly different than what they teach at my Jiu Jitsu class, but I'm not positive since they don't go into too much detail about it. Their instruction so far is basically: keep your hands up, if you are doing something with one hand, the other hand should be up and guarding your head.

    I try to stand pretty loose: none of my muscles tense. My hands are open but fingers curl a bit. My hands are roughly level with my neck, or sometimes a bit lower.
    One way to get your hands in the same shape I hold mine in: rigidly open your hand all the way (so fingers stiff), then relax your hand completely.
    Generally my hands are held such that the palms are almost facing each other, but with a slight angle so they are also facing out away from my body slightly.
    This is different than the stance I would use if trying to de-escalate a situation while also protecting myself from someone who might throw strikes. In that case I would stand with my palms facing all the way out towards them and arms extended further than with my "I'm ready to throw strikes" stance, I think.
    The body language is less aggressive this way, while being less optimal for throwing strikes (which doesn't matter since I'm trying to de-escalate, not throw strikes, and can always switch my stance if needed.)

    When I punch, I only tense into a fist during the last part of the movement. This is how I was taught a few years back when I did an MMA class run by a co-worker out of the office gym. He had experience with Boxing, Muay Thai, and submission wrestling.
    The idea is that when you are loose you use less energy on movements (vs being tense), and that your strikes will have more snap to them (faster going out, and if you untense right after the strike, faster to snap it back as well).

    The loose hands are pretty important for being able to block/parry quickly as well--when I tense my arms/hands it is noticeably slower to move them into a block than when they are loose. I can't imagine even trying to parry a jab/cross/etc if I had my arm tense; I don't think I'd be able to move the arm fast enough.

    My Jiu Jitsu class does not discuss this aspect for punching strikes. They do explicitly tell students to use an open hand for elbow strikes, only tensing during the last part of the movement to snap the elbow forward a bit more, but do not do so for the punches.

    I asked the main instructor if it was problematic if I continue doing open hand to tensing at the last bit for strikes, and he said that is fine and seemed to agree it was better to tense at the last minute, just as with the elbow strikes. But he doesn't correct other students who form a fist first, then strike.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016

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