White Crane books and DVDs

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Sandy, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

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    Hi, could anybody offer some insight into the various White Crane books and DVDs?

    There seem to be lots of different crane styles (tiger-crane, fujian white crane, shaolin white crane) and lots of different books. But I'm confused which books relate to which style of crane.

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    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Lorne Bernard's book is on flying crane.
     
  3. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I think it's hard to really just say "Crane" was ever a specific style, it's more like a very common animal used in the kung fu lessons of various styles like the various ones you mentioned.

    Animals and what they're used to represent is common all over Chinese culture. The White Crane mythology of China for instance is heavily associated with the Taoist Immortals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crane_in_Chinese_mythology).

    Shaolin, Hung gar Tiger Crane, Fujian styles, Karate, and so on were all heavily influenced by Crane symbolism.

    More Crane symbolism :D

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    Hung Gar Crane:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FomUPyqf-qY"]Hung Gar Tiger and Crane - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    ?????????????????????????!!!!!?????????
    There are two distinct families of crane styles, what on earth are you on about?
     
  5. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Yes there are distinct Crane styles. But many of the 'Crane' elements in the 2 family branches you are referring to are also shared between very different styles today (2016). There are really lot more than 2 styles that contain the same elements in the books and DVDs Sandy asked about.

    There are different familial branches with common roots. The "Crane" roots go back quite a ways before the modern styles that associate specifically associated with some sort of Crane element. The two families you mention are ones specifically associated with White Crane. But Hung gar also includes material from more than one source of "Crane", as does Wing Chun, which is why Wing Chun and Hung gar share some similarities, particularly in Crane style techniques. The Five Ancestors Fist is another amalgamation style that contains elements shared with Hung gar Iron Body, Fujian Crane, and so on.

    Lam Sai Wing memorialized some of the Hung gar 'White Crane' techniques in his book on Tiger Crane and Iron Wire. Remember that the common thread are the Taoist Immortal motifs and their association with Taiwanese White Cranes, something that was incorporated into Hung gar over many centuries, but the entirety of those Crane elements amounts to only one fraction of the much larger (Five Animal/Elements) system.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  6. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Hmm, because you just said
    Not really very helpful when he's looking for specific material of Fujian crane is it? Is a book on Hung Gar going to show him the sequence for 7 steps 3 battles?
    Hung Gar hasn't existed for "many centuries".
    No, five ancestors fist contains the entirety of Fujian crane, it's one of the 5 ancestors.
     
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Sorry he asked about "tiger crane" in general as well. 7 steps 3 battles concepts and Hung gar tiger crane have common roots, but no to learn specific forms of White Crane, you need to learn from a specific school that teaches them. If you did both though you'd find the common elements between them. Like I said, Miyagi's Crane kick and stances are found in both Fujianese styles AND Hung gar Tiger Crane Fist :D I know, it blew my mind too when I first realized the connection.

    Well, Hung gar has been around since at least the Ming Dynasty. Geologically 300-400 years isn't many centuries, I was kind of referring to culturally, it's all been mixing for quite some time. Hung gar and Fujian Crane are practically siblings in genealogy. My point was the the reason for all the different Crane books and DVDs was that the Crane material is really spread all over Southern China and Japan. Hung gar as it's taught today in most places contains whatever Crane materials made their way into Wong Fei Hung's choreography, and percolated in the village Hung Kuen styles.

    Entirety is a relative term, I doubt it contains every single element of every Fujianese crane system, right? Five Ancestors uses it as one of five pillars meaning material was used. To say it includes every single element is a bit reaching, that would be like claiming Hung gar contains everything from any of its constituent Animal styles like Tiger. It doesn't of course. The Hung Gar crane represents various Southern Chinese Crane styles, the Taoist Immortals, even the element of Wood in the Wu Xing. Hung gar Crane is a superset of a lot of different Crane-related imagery and techniques. The modern versions available in most places are essentially Wong Fei Hung's treatise on various Crane styles in China. Some of it was taught to him by his father, some he learned himself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Really?
    No, he asked about the Tiger-crane style of Baihe [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylYvsbKTXc"]Nam Yang - YouTube[/ame]
    No, but it does contain an entire crane system of equivalent size to other Fujian crane systems (Wuzu is massive).
     
  9. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I didn't think he meant a specific type of 'Tiger Crane', but that's kind of a related issue, there are many different 'Tiger Crane' styles, of which Hung gar is just one with a set of techniques and concepts surrounding "Crane".

    The video you posted was VERY Hung-gar-esque, you know ;) The Lion Drum sequence was most definitely Hung gar too :D

    If we really want to go way back, in the Hung gar legends (I know we're getting into mythical territory), Hung Hei Gwan's Hokkien wife teaches him Fujian White Crane. If there's anything to that, then the legendary founder of Hung gar may have also been a 'White Crane' master before the style that bears his name was given that name. Or at least, somebody associated the legendary figure with a style that included the hallmarks.

    Or, possibly this tale is a hint to some other past relationship between Hung gar and White Crane.

    Your "really?" comment is leading, how old do YOU think Hung gar Kuen is?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  10. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Even according to Hung's own "history",Hung,Hee-gung was taught by the supposed Shaolin guys around the early 1700s.

    That' s Ch'ing Dynasty-but you knew that.
     
  11. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Supposed Fujian Shaolin guys!!! :D

    You are correct brother but the actual styles Hung Hei Gwan would have learned (as a legendary figure) come from the Ming Dynasty, in particular the styles from Guangdong and Fujian. Recall that the Ching/Manchu were not responsible for the Chinese martial arts in Southern China, those are all tied historically to older Chinese arts forms, in particular of the Hakka which is, according to oral tradition, the source of Hung gar's White Crane influence. The name of 'Hung gar' is associated collections of these varying styles, not to mention the legendary "Southern Shaolin Temple". Whether or not you follow the legend that it was an actual place, or the more likely scenario that it simply represented a number of places and styles with Shaolin influence south of the Yellow River, Hung gar's roots are set in Fujian specifically. So, with the legends as the context, Shaolin -> Fujian -> Hung gar. The legends say (whether these were real people or not) that Hung Hei Gwan learned from either his wife and/or a Fujian Shaolin Chan master (Jee Sin, who again probably didn't exist, but represents the Shaolin influence in Fujian, hence the Shaolin White Crane connection to Hung gar Crane).

    Now, knowing the Southern oral traditions and their fancy, I'm more inclined to believe some guy had a wife from Fujian who taught him White Crane style, and the Shaolin Master legend popped up later on like it usually did, to hide the true names and identities from Ching persecution. If I wanted to hide my Hakka wife's role as the true source of my famous kung fu, I'd definitely make up a Shaolin legend :D The same thing applies to Wing Chun, where they appear to have used tales of legendary Shaolin nuns to cover up the names of real people, male and female, who taught martial arts to rebels.

    Written and picture and video evidence is really easy to find. Simply look in Lam Sai Wing's book on Tiger and Crane Paired Fist or Iron Wire, and you'll see Fujian White Crane stances and forms. Or even better, start comparing the names of techniques in Hung gar and the traditional White Crane forms, and you start to see the same exact names (which can't be a coincidence). Sure, some of these techniques may be performed differently, or maybe not. But the hanzi and naming conventions clearly show the common lineage. Again, that lineage is an earlier, Ming Dynasty development, which later in the Ching dynasty became famous due to revolutionary activities when Guangdong and Fuijian became 'brothers in arms' against the Manchu, and their respective martial arts blended even further. Many styles from that point on began referencing their Ming heritage with the phrases like 'Fan Chin, fook Ming').

    I have been checking actual lists of Hung gar and Fujian White Crane techniques and there are a lot of common ones. "Golden cockerel stands on one leg", "golden scissors", "the immortal casts his net", "the immortal grinds the mill", "Part the grass to find the snake", and so on. There are lot of them, it turns out. "Pretty Maiden looks in the mirror" or "Beggar asks for rice" are so old in the Chinese martial arts pantheon, they're literally found everywhere, it seems, like Sun/Moon 'bow' that is found in all the Family styles, in Shaolin Quan, in Wing Chun, Five Ancestors. The White Crane style bows I've seen are very similar to these, which also hints at the common ancestry.

    Here's one list of White Crane techniques I found, I've highlighted the ones that are in Hung gar (you can see the same exact names and hanzi in the lists in Lam Sai Wing's books too). There could be more, my knowledge of Hung gar Crane is incomplete. The Five Animal/Five Elements and Iron Wire forms should contain Fujian crane elements. And recall that Leung "Tid Kiu Saam" Kwan, (the most famous progenitor of the Iron Wire form), and the legends surrounding the Iron Wire, tie it to not only Shaolin practices, but also a mythical 'Immortal White Crane' (Bak Hok Sin Si) in the oral traditions.

    THE SHUANG YANG WHITE CRANE SHUANG YANG BAI HE ROU RUAN QUAN

    1. 招(zhāo) 陽(yánɡ) 開(kāi) 式(shì) Opening salute to the sun
    2. 十(shí) 字(zì) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) The cross
    3. 將(jiānɡ) 軍(jūn) 抱(bào) 印(yìn) The General carrying his seal
    4. 双(shuānɡ) 肩(jiān) 齊(qí) 墜(zhuì) Two shoulders going downwards
    5. 金(jīn) 剪(jiǎn) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) The Golden Scissors
    6. 盤(pán) 古(ɡǔ) 開(kāi) 天(tiān) The beginning of heaven and earth (Pan Gu opens heaven)
    7. 餓(è) 虎(hǔ) 擒(qín) 羊(yánɡ) The hungry tiger grasping a goat
    8. 故(ɡù) 树(shù) 盤(pán) 根(ɡēn) The old tree shaking its roots
    9. 金(jīn) 鸡(jī) 独(dú) 立(lì) The golden cockerel standing on one leg
    10. 瞛(cōnɡ) 跳(tiào) 脚(jiǎo) 式(shì) The leap
    11. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 撒(sā) 網(wǎnɡ) The Immortal casting his net
    12. 魁(kuí) 星(xīnɡ) 踢(tī) 斗(dòu) The sage (Kui Xing) appoints a scholar
    13. 鐵(tiě) 槌(chuí) 沉(chén) 江(jiānɡ) The hammer sinks into the river
    14. 双(shuānɡ) 轉(zhuǎn) 十(shí) 字(zì) Double turns of the cross
    15. 敲(qiāo) 鐘(zhōnɡ) 擂(léi) 鼓(ɡǔ) Ringing the bell and beating the drum
    16. 招(zhāo) 阳(yánɡ) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) Salute to the sun
    17. 旋(xuán) 转(zhuǎn) 十(shí) 字(zì) The spinning cross
    18. 金(jīn) 剪(jiǎn) 手(shǒu) 式(shì) The golden scissors
    19. 撥(bō) 草(cǎo) 尋(xún) 蛇(shé) Part the grass to find the snake
    20. 蝴(hú) 蝶(dié) 雙(shuānɡ) 飛(fēi) Two butterflies flying together
    21. 云(yún) 开(kāi) 见(jiàn) 月(yuè) Clear the clouds to see the moon
    22. 冲(chōnɡ) 天(tiān) 炮(pào) 式(shì) The firework shooting to the sky
    23. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 推(tuī) 磨(mó) The sage grinding the rice mill
    24. 百(bǎi) 鸟(niǎo) 归(ɡuī) 巢(cháo) A 100 birds returning to their nests
    25. 鸳 鸯(yānɡ) 找(zhǎo) 窝(wō) The mandarin duck searches for its nest
    26. 猛(měnɡ) 虎(hǔ) 归(ɡuī) 山(shān) The ferocious tiger returns to the mountain
    27. 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(右(yòu)) The white horse sheds its saddle (right)
    28 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(左(zuǒ)) The white horse sheds its saddle (left)
    29. 旋(xuán) 转(zhuǎn) 金(jīn) 剪(jiǎn) The whirling golden scissors
    30. 撥(bō) 草(cǎo) 尋(xún) 蛇(shé) Parting the grass to find the snake
    31. 蝴(hú) 蝶(dié) 雙(shuānɡ) 飛(fēi) Two butterflies flying together
    32. 云(yún) 开(kāi) 见(jiàn) 月(yuè) Clear the clouds to see the moon
    33. 冲(chōnɡ) 天(tiān) 炮(pào) 式(shì) The firework shooting to the sky
    34. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 推(tuī) 磨(mó) The sage grinding the rice mill
    35. 百(bǎi) 鸟(niǎo) 归(ɡuī) 巢(cháo) A 100 birds returning to their nests
    36. 鶯(yīnɡ) 鸯(yānɡ) 找(zhǎo) 窝(wō) The mandarin duck search for its nest
    37. 猛(měnɡ) 虎(hǔ) 归(ɡuī) 山(shān) The ferocious tiger returns to the mountain
    38. 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(右(yòu)) The white horse sheds its saddle (right)
    39. 白(bái) 马(mǎ) 捨(shě) 鞍(ān)(左(zuǒ)) The white horse sheds its saddle (left)
    40. 挑(tiāo) 手(shǒu) 踏(tà) 式(shì) The sweep of arm and leg
    41. 懒(lǎn) 虎(hǔ) 伸(shēn) 腰(yāo) The lazy tiger stretching its back
    42. 双(shuānɡ) 燕(yàn) 齐(qí) 垂(chuí) Two swallows diving together
    43. 双(shuānɡ) 脚(jiǎo) 正(zhènɡ) 立(lì) Both legs come together
    44. 连(lián) 环(huán) 脚(jiǎo) 式(shì) Consecutive kicks
    45. 双(shuānɡ) 龙(lónɡ) 出(chū) 海(hǎi) Two dragons rushing out of the sea
    46. 半(bàn) 壁(bì) 开(kāi) 锁(suǒ) Opening the lock on the wall
    47. 仙(xiān) 女(nǚ) 散(sàn) 花(huā) The fairy scattering petals
    48. 霸(bà) 王(wánɡ) 开(kāi) 弓(ɡōnɡ) The tyrant stretching his bow
    49. 狮(shī) 子(zi) 开(kāi) 口(kǒu) The lion cub opening its mouth (right)
    50. 狮(shī) 子(zi) 开(kāi) 口(kǒu) The lion cub opening its mouth (left)
    51 . 大(dà) 鹏(pénɡ) 展(zhǎn) 翅(chì) The roc spreading its wings
    52. 仙(xiān) 人(rén) 指(zhǐ) 路(lù) The immortal pointing the way
    53. 双(shuānɡ) 燕(yàn) 吐(tǔ) 艳(yàn) Two swallows spitting
    54. 毒(dú) 蛇(shé) 鎻(suǒ) 喉(hóu) The poisonous snake grasping the throat
    55. 白(bái) 鹤(hè) 冲(chōnɡ) 天(tiān) The white crane soars in to the sky
    56. 箫(xiāo) 公(ɡōnɡ) 摇(yáo) 橹(lǔ) The boatman rowing the boat
    57. 小(xiǎo) 鬼(ɡuǐ) 堆(duī) 舟(zhōu) The little devil pushing the boat
    58. 莲(lián) 花(huā) 献(xiàn) 水(shuǐ) The lotus flower sprinkling water
    59. 收(shōu) 回(huí) 十(shí) 字(zì) Returning to the cross
    60. 风(fēnɡ) 扫(sǎo) 柳(liǔ) 叶(yè) The wind sweeping the willow leaves (right)
    61. 风(fēnɡ) 扫(sǎo) 柳(liǔ) 叶(yè) The wind sweeping the willow leaves (left)
    62. 美(měi) 人(rén) 照(zhào) 镜(jìnɡ) The beauty looking in the mirror
    63. 坐(zuò) 招(zhāo) 阳(yánɡ) 手(shǒu) The final salute to the sun
    64. 十(shí) 字(zì) 分(fēn) 手(shǒu) The parting cross
    65. 孩(hái) 儿(r) 抱(bào) 牌(pái) The child carrying the ancestral tablet
    66. 双(shuānɡ) 肩(jiān) 齐(qí) 垂(chuí) Both shoulders sinking to the ground
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    It's own mythology says it's from the second century of the Qing dynasty, it's very difficult to meaningfully date Hung Gar before 1780, and indeed it's conceptually and structurally identical to the wealth of systems that sprung up around Foshan and Jiangmen at that time (indeed I've previously posited the existence of a "Jee Shim" figure teaching "proto-style X" in this area in the late 18th century). Indeed if the version of Hung Gar history that has Wong Kei Yin learning from Luk Ah Choi is correct that would pretty much be the time period for it's creation (and would tie in with the other purported students of Jee Shim still teaching in the 1820s)
    There are two problems with this myth. Firstly Fong Wing Chun the founder of Fujian crane is in the Qing record from 1684 as an established martial arts instructor (one of the cases where the myth is actually true, the Yongchun Baihe tradition really was created by a woman). So unless Hung Hei Gung married a woman over 100 it's likely a blending of myths.
    Secondly Hung Gar before Wong Fei Hung had no tiger-crane, and the crane in Wong Fei Hung's system appears to mostly be from Wong Yan Lam's Tibetan crane tradition, with a few bits of generic Cantonese 5 animals crane thrown in.
    Not really
    Debatable, like I say Hung Gar bears all the hallmarks of a distinct Cantonese Kung Fu family that emerged around 1780. While yes these systems didn't spring out of nothing, they also are not a direct transmission of an older system. Even then, it's disingenuous to talk about the parent styles being the child style.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    You said 'mostly' and I think you're mostly correct, but Hung gar did have a number of tiger and crane influences before Wong Fei Hung. Fei Hung was a scholar of all the martial arts of China, not just Hung gar. The Tiger-Crane Double Pattern fist he choreographed contains both Tibetan and Fujian White Crane elements, if what you say is true. I base that on the common technique names. Basically it appears Wong Fei Hung used many specific Fujian White Crane techniques for naming the techniques in his newly choreographed fist sets.

    I think we can take into account that Fei Hung had multiple influences outside of the village Hung gar his father taught him. He was also exposed to other influences including Tid Kiu Saam's version of the Iron Wire, from Lam Fook Sing, as well as some sort of Fujian White Crane influence, otherwise there's no explanation for the actual Tiger Crane Double Pattern fist set to contain the same names as Fujian White Crane techniques. If you can find the same names in Lama Pai, Tibetan White Crane, and Hop Gar, let's compare them!

    Why not? the Lion Drumming is the same (almost beat for beat), the uniforms are very similar, and the movements while different have similar body mechanics (both styles are Nan Quan, are they not? Maybe that helps explain the similarity I see).

    Well exactly my point brother, if they didn't spring out of nothing, then they are really styles that developed throughout the Ming dynasty (and earlier), but were really given their modern names (then ones we use today) in the Ching Dynasty. So I think it's valid to say Hung gar was "named" in the Ching dynasty, from a combination of Ching-era ,Ming-era , and earlier native styles. And so, 'direct transmission of an older system' must be the case. The list of techniques seem to prove that there was direct written transmission of Fujian White Crane forms into Hung gar Crane at some point.

    It seems likely the transmission is older than the 18th century, unless you believe that Wong Fei Hung simply plagiarized the names of all his Crane techniques :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    But those named movements are not crane movements, so it's a non sequitur.
    So not at all similar beyond the highly superficial
    No, they weren't given names, they became something else. By your logic Shotokan is an 8th century Chinese martial art.
     
  15. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Some of them are crane movements, but my point was that entire set is a Fujian White Crane form, yet half or possibly more of its technique names are also listed in the Hung gar curriculum.

    So in addition to the Fujian White Crane forms containing many techniques also found in Hung Tiger Crane (animal names aside, they are largely semantic), the Hung gar Baat Hok Ying (8 basic Crane Techniques) contain some obvious Fujian Crane stances and kicks, not to mention, the Crane's beak hand pattern (hok jueh) and wing pattern (hok yik), which is also common between Hung gar and White Crane (and can even be found Tai Chi Chuan, I believe).

    Take a look at another White Crane site. Practically every picture of a White Crane technique on this page has a 'twin' in Hung gar Crane. Even the "Rejuvenated Crane" of Hung gar is seen in the Fujian White Crane pictures here.

    http://www.mardb.com/fujian-white-crane/
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  16. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    That's quite a leap or even a straw argument, to say that because an 18th-19th century composite style was given a specific name after being around for quite some time, it was totally something different than what had come before it over the earlier centuries. The evidence instead points to Hung gar actually having done a decent job of both collecting many different styles and integrating them, both before the Manchu invasions as well as after it.

    I've already proven basically that Hung gar's curriculum (at least the Wong Fei Hung/Lam Sai Wing lineage, if not the village styles) captured quite a lot of material in the Fujian White Crane forms. That should make sense, since Wong Fei Hung was one of China's most learned scholars of the martial arts. He was not limited to village Hung kuen, or just Cantonese styles. The single leg Crane stance and kick found in both Fujian White Crane and various forms of Karate, is taught in the Hung gar Tiger Crane set, as well as several core stances associated with Fujian Crane styles, such as Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg (duk gerk ma bo).

    By your logic, everything in MMA popped into existence only in the 1990's when a lot of the traditional material that was effective became incorporated into it. But that's not true. Newaza, Muay Thai, Kyokushin didn't spring into existence in the 1990s, they all have very long histories. You can always give something very old a new name (they did it with Muay Thai!). Judo was a new name for Jujutsu with practical changes. Jiujitsu is a newer name for Jujutsu popular because of how Brazilians say the word, and how they practice their newaza, but newaza wasn't anything new. And even though Judo and Jiujitsu are definitely different in practice than the older Jujutsu, they share a lot of the same stuff and plenty that hasn't truly changed since 16th-18th century Japan. By corollary, the same kind of artifacts are found shared between many "different" kung fu styles. The Crane stance in Wing Chun and Hung gar are the same because of this. The Crane's beak and wing movements in Hung gar and White Crane, ditto. There is kick in "The Karate Kid" that was not taken from Hung gar, but has been in Hung gar for centuries.

    See for yourself. Clearly a few common techniques also seen in the White Crane systems.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  17. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    This might really blow your mind, brother. Here are Tai Chi and Praying Mantis forms, showing "White Crane Showing/Displaying Wings", which is named/found in both Fujian White Crane and Hung Gar.

    A little bit "something different"? I will agree to that. But these all share common names, ancestry, physical positioning, and hand forms.

    [​IMG]

    "White Crane Spreads Wings" from Tai Chi Chuan

    [​IMG]

    "Single Leg Flying Crane" from Hung Gar (and the name of this stance, duk gerk ma, is found in Fujian White Crane fist sets):

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    No, it won't blow my mind at all, because I've been around enough to know that the things you're seeing as evidence of a connection are pretty universal in Chinese styles, and therefore it's the differences that are more important than superficial similarities.
     
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Sorry brother but aren't you ignoring quite a few pieces of evidence (not my perception, brother? I've provided hard evidence right down to the names of the sequence of Fujian White Crane forms, I don't think I ever took any creative fancy. I'm showing links, list of techniques, and pictures, not just my imagination...not just opining).

    Fujian White Crane kuen set techniques have the exact same names and hanzi as Hung gar kuen set techniques, and there are a lot of them. Pictures show the exact same techniques, or variations of very similar techniques. Why are you suggesting it's just me seeing these things? I'm not imagining this.

    Remember your very first post was a charge that I wasn't helping the OP, and an incredulous questioning of how could I possibly say there weren't just two canonical Fujian White Crane styles, when I posted a picture of Miyagi performing Single Leg Flying Crane, and a Hung gar sifu doing the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen (which contains the same Single Leg Flying Crane). Then came the red herrings about the age of Hung gar, and so on.

    Are you just trying to be contrarian for debate's sake, or trying to one-up me on knowledge of Crane because you feel you're more of an expert on Crane? :D I hate it when kung fu people do that, especially when presented with earnest evidence. Why can't we discuss what's in ALL of Chinese Crane styles, how they are related, and why there are so many? A lot of martial arts in South China, Okinawa, and Japan were heavily influenced by the White Crane styles. That was the OP's conundrum, at least in my humble opinion, trying to make sense of the mix.

    And for the record, he has yet to respond and back up your claim that by 'tiger crane' he specifically meant Bai He Quan. He could have meant any of whole slew of 'Tiger Crane' styles, and I picked the one I knew best.

    I don't want to argue with you any more, and I think I've provided a lot for the OP to think about, so let's let the OP decide if my posts are helpful or not?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  20. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    Dr Yang's book that you pictured in your post is on the Ancestral white crane style But he also gives some general white crane history and talks about the differences of the 5 main crane styles, eating crane, sleeping, crane, shouting crane, hopping crane and ancestral crane. It's a well written and well researched book.
     

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