Is this kung fu??

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by icefield, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    saw this clip on another forum
    The poster put it up as an example of a regular normal class he runs, whilst talking about the sloppy bad sparring clips most traditional schools put up (the ones that put clips up that is) and how they train simply isnt realistic
    So how much does it look like a typical chinese martial arts class to most people?
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VAufGeqm1I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VAufGeqm1I[/ame]

    the school owner now advertises as a thai/sanda and MMA gym, but he is an indoor student of a living legend of Chinese martial arts who owned one of the original sanda gyms in the states and says all his stand up comes from his traditional teacher (who was a military boxing and sanda champion in china)

    I noticed two things that i typically dont see in chinese clubs but i see all the time in MMA and thai gyms:
    Firstly i noticed the use of correct protective equipment, a number of Chinese clubs i have been in or watched on line either use no protective equipment making for non contact unrealistic sparring, or use bag gloves or small gloves which ends up with people either hurting each other or completely pulling shots and looking no better than those who wear no protection, now i know some techniques cant be practised with gloves on, but these you practise in a different session. or in drills ever gung fu style i know has hooks upper cuts and straights which you can train with gloves)

    the second thing i noticed was the level of contact and the technical nature of the sparring; a lot of times i see chinese stylists not properly schooled in how to spar trying to take each others head off in sparring, wearing gloves seems to signal its time to wack each other until someone gives up, which doesnt help anyone learn and means sparring doesnt happen very often, in the clip you see each person is working within their comfort level so everyone is learning and everyone wants to spar

    so is this how people train their kung fu?
     
  2. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Not in the Kwoons I have trained in. Liked what I saw though. Sign me up!
     
  3. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    At the KF school I go to, sparring looks very similar to that (same sort of equipment, contact, moves, etc.), except with no throws or grappling of any kind (other than the odd clinch).
     
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    On a good night, yeah.
     
  5. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Nice! :' D CLF/Lama Pai makes a nice stand up combo!

    LFD
     
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    This is David Ross school right. Well yeah, loads don't, few do. Luckily I have trained in a school that has trained guys competing in comps, and I have competed once myself in the British Open Full Contact. You soon realise the futility of trying to smash the crap out of each other, especially if the guy in front of you can cause you serious damage at any given time. In the end it all comes with the right experience(s).

    To answer your question yes it is Kung Fu, just not everyone in KF is in a place to recognise it as such. But over the years I've been involved things have been changing and improving somewhat I would say. The internet has probably played its part in this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    So, to expand a little, someone just showed me this "extreme" Taiji video
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKuUZMWFxb0"]Dragon Wrestling - Tai Chi Push Hands - Training Drills Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
    It looks remarkably like my regular sticky hands material.
     
  8. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    Where I trained we were pretty much the same but with most using small gloves.
    I'm not a fan of boxing gloves and found that we managed the contact level quite well.

    As time went on we'd give beginners boxing gloves. But our focus was always actually applying the kungfu we trained as opposed to just kickboxing.
     
  9. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The two aren't exclusive, you just train different things. Yes you can do more hand fighting stuff in MMA gloves but you can't hit as hard, so there's a compromise either way. Also Ross primarily does Lama Pai, which is more of a longarm system with extended forearm bridges, so the compromise is less for him anyway.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's a bit of a false compromise though, as you're still getting the concussive force of the punch with larger gloves. Which isn't so bad with body shots, but not good for the brain.

    The level of contact in the OP video is fine with bag mitts, in my experience.
     
  11. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    Is there any such bridging in the video? I've not seen Lama Pai before.
     
  12. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    lama doesnt bridge as such
    two of its key ideas are:

    Sim (dodge, evade, avoid): Sim represents the preferred defensive method. It is considered superior to evade all attacks whilst simultaneously striking exposed vital points. This is achieved through footwork, body positioning, and jumping.
    Jit (to stop, intercept): Jit represents the second line of defense. Attacks that cannot be evaded must be intercepted and the attacking limb destroyed.

    So if they can they dodge slip etc, if they cant they intercept and destroy,
    they don’t seek the arm to make contact or bridge of it per say, which was one of the reasons it was so sucessful in southern china when it turned up there, it sort of went against what the others were used to
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014
  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    The video is not at all taijiquan, not saying it is not useful, it just isn't Taiji.

    As for the coiling bits, My Taiji shifu would call that bad push hands practice and the guy I trained wing chun with would call it bad chi sau.
     
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    That being said I'd argue that jit is bridging, and there are numerous instances on the video where they make contact with the arms and enter. Ross and I have differing opinions on this, but I'd argue it's just a case of bridging being something very different from the Shaw Bros stuff that people seem to think it is once the pressure is on.
     
  15. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Taiji is full of people who are willing to decry anything remotely martial as not Taiji, and the same is true for Wing Chun. It's worth noting that Wing Chun sticky hands is far more restrictive than the sticky hands done by other southern styles.
     
  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    As someone who trains regularly in both 7oz MMA gloves and 16oz boxing gloves, I can assure you that the latter option allows you to train much harder at the same level of safety.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You see a lot of injuries when sparring with the MMA gloves?
     
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    People get rocked or dropped way more, people have more issues with rib bruising and people pick up thumb injuries. I make people wear face grills with the MMA gloves, but my experiences at other places suggests that there's more of an issue with cuts and black eyes too.
     
  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    That is true, but I'm not one of them, nor is my Taiji shifu (he is rather fond of qinna actually and the best I have ever come across at it) and the gentleman I trained Wing Chun with isn't either, he is very much into the martial arts and hitting of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Can't say I find cuts and thumb injuries an issue with bag mitts, though I'll give you the rest. Less cushioning for noses too. I've only really had facial cuts from bare-knuckle. I've found real leather more forgiving than the plastic fake stuff for cuts and abrasions too.

    I'd take black eyes and cuts over brain trauma from a false sense of security any day, but I work from home so I don't have to worry about appearances.

    It just comes down to which compromises suit the individual, I suppose.

    EDIT: this is the kind of bag mitt we generally use: http://www.blitzsport.com/Fingerless-Bag-Gloves?sc=9&category=42
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014

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