Differences in Cheng 37 step form?

Been looking at the 37 step Cheng Man Ching form and have noticed some slight variation in the movements for example in this video:

https://picasaweb.google.com/106945118093691787946/ChengManChingVideo#5942056126986658546

There is at the begining of the form a circular motion (0.11secs) and a litttle later in a backwards kick (0.54secs) which I notice is not in the video below:

[ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBIZciSHPgA"]Tai Chi Chuan-The Complete Short Form - YouTube[/ame]

They are both listed as Cheng Man Ching 37 step, is there more than one version or is it a case of people adding/removing stuff from the form?

 

You got it

Like pretty much every other tai chi form out there, there are unique flavours of CMC - all coming down to personal interpretation from the line of teachers from you going back to Cheng himself.

The closer you get to Cheng, the more similar forms would be, though still individual flavour will be noticable.

 

That's interesting, I wonder how many variations to the form there are! Would you know from the video which particular line of teachers they are from? The first video is how I was taught the form, but my instructor teaches it on both left and right sides. Is it common to teach it both sides as I would think learning the long Yang form from both left and right would take an age just to get the movements right!

 

How many practitioners are there?

You might be able to have a general idea, but I doubt you could identify the exact teacher, unless the teacher happened to be a big name..

Re; form on both left and right; one of my teachers said this -

"Taijiquan must be done both sides - few do this in the west - it is about balance and harmony of opposites so how could you not?"

I tend to agree with this idea, as my first teacher taught both sides as a matter of course to all students.
Without worrying about esoteric ideas about balancing energy etc; it makes sense to balance out the movements on both sides. A movement such as single whip, which is only practiced one way in the form, needs working on both sides - this is part of basic body conditioning; opening the joints, range of motion, intent training, etc..

My couple of cents...

 

I received my copy of Nigel Suttons Wisdom of the Taiji Masters today, read the first few chapters and its got some good stuff relating to the CMC lineage and how its developed in the far east in comparison to the west. Seems to be a lot more martial in outlook over in Malaysia than here, with a bit of a fighting reputation according to those sifu Sutton has interviewed.

 

Great post, thanks!! I get your point about training both sides, makes sense! I guess with CMC being one of the ones who has spread the taiji message in the west, there must be countless students and students of students who have added their particular slant on the form. Though going off what I've read in sifu Nigel suttons books it does seem (CMC lineage) to be less martial in the west than in the far east.
As for lineage of teachers, I guess the best way to find out is to ask!!

 

My instructor teaches the 37 step CMC form, push hands and the yang 32 sword form. He also teaches the Yang 6 step form, Wu 16 step form, Yang 24 step and combines 67 step form. I'm focusing on the CMC lineage side of things but was wondering what others would consider as being part of the complete CMC syllabus. I'd read somewhere that CMC focused on the form, pushing hands and the jian sword form, but in my readings have come across other stuff linked to the CMC lineage like sabre forms, pole forms and san sau forms 1 and 2 which are taught in Sifu Nigel Suttons org. There doesn't seem to be a fixed syllabus as such but with what I've read there is a lot of divergence in what is taught under the CMC lineage banner.

 

I'm pretty sure Cheng didn't teach a carbon copy to everyone he taught either. His form changed and he taught people differently like any other teacher who's art develops..

I'm not a CMC guy, read more informed opinions here: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21981

 

I'm not a CMC person myself but can recommend another very readable book of his called "tai chi roots and branches" which would be of interest as an aid to your understanding of the practical
applications(and correct structure) of your form.

 

That's an awful lot of forms!
I get more than enough benefit and enjoyment from practicing "only" the Yang long form, and occasionally waving a sword around...

Does your teacher include applications, and eventually sparring? (just curious :Angel

 

I don't even really do Taiji anymore and I know more forms than that. The shorter Yang forms are training forms to prepare for the 108. They don't contain anything different, they're just quicker to learn and easier to remember.

 

I do Wu style, but I've never heard of a 16 step form, so now I'm curious to learn more.

What lineage is it from? (I'm not using the 'L word' to try to start an online ****ing contest or anything, I'm just interested in which 'branch' of Wu style it's from.)

And would be you mind telling me what the sixteen steps are?

Many thanks.

 

Thanks, found some interesting stuff here!

I've got a couple of his books and that one is winging its way to me now via amazon!

He teaches some applications and pushing hands, though not to sure if he goes into san sau forms yet. Sparring will hopefully come in the future!

I got that info from his website as all I've been learning is the 37 step form.

Here's a copy of the PDF which describes the form:

Wu Style Tai Chi 16 Forms

Start with the feet at shoulder width, the arms come up to about shoulder height, then
inwards toward the body, move down until the hands are by the side with the palms facing
to the rear.
Weight moves to the right leg as the arms come up to the sides, step forward putting the
left heel on the floor, at the same time bring the hands into the lift hands position.
Move weight to the left leg as you step and turn to the right. Move weight to the right leg
and the hands to ward off position. Right hand turns over so that both palms face the
ground as the weight moves to the left leg. Move weight to the right leg as the hands move
into a circular press. Move weight to the left leg and bring the right foot to the heel, hands
push to the front. Make a hook with the right hand and step across to the left. Move weight
to the left leg as the left hand faces forward and weight centres in single whip.
Move weight to the left leg in slant flying. Step forward with the right leg, palms face each
other with left hand on top. Step up with the left leg so feet are shoulder width. Left hand is
still and the right hand rotates forward and up until the palm faces up - crane cool wings
Squat then bend from the hips, right hand comes down and circles to the left. Turn to the
left into brush knee and push, position the right (rear) foot parallel to the left foot and
straighten the back as the right hand pushes forward palm facing out.
Left hand faces up, step through with the right leg into brush knee and push. Feet remain
parallel then the back straightens.
Right hand faces up step through with the left leg into brush knee and push, keep the feet
parallel and the back straightens.
Step across with the right leg, left foot comes to the toe in empty stance. Move into needle
at sea bottom with the left hand slightly higher than the right hand, extend the right hand
above the head. Sink the body and extend left hand out-over then follow with the right
hand and extend just beyond the left.
Turn into horse stance. Move into fan through back, left hand palm outward, right hand
palm up. Bring right hand down making a fist, rotating to the outside of the left hand. Move
into a back fist as the body turns to the right.
Draw back the fist, step through and push to the right then left using the left hand. Punch
with the right, left hand fingers on top of the right arm above the elbow. Left hand fingers
move to the underside of the elbow palm up. Draw both hands back with palms facing the
body. Move the weight to the right leg and lean back bringing the hands down either side
of the body. Step forward with the right leg into a low push, move the weight back then
forward into push.
Move the weight back then lean forward, take the arms out to the side, turn to face the
front, feet at shoulder width arms crossed. Finish with the hands by the side.

Apart from that I've no idea of lineage etc for that particular form.

Could this be it?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocHe6dbR4ig#t=41

 

Seems similar, but in the video clip it goes on a bit longer than the description suggests. There also seem to be quite a lot of extra 'twiddly' bits that the description doesn't mention, but that could just be due to the inherent limitations of trying to list relatively complex movements where you generally have four limbs all moving at the same time. (Plus eyes, head, etc.) Written descriptions never really sound like what we actually practice!

 

The circular motion w/arms at the beginning is just someone's add on. Not a part of CMC or Yang,C-f's new Yang form.

The "kick" you noted looks less like a kick than just an exagerrated step back-everybody else just withdraws the foot easliy and then steps forward w/it.

Flavor is individual-you can line up 12 guys all doing the same form and the flavors can be different. Changing/adding postures isn't about flavor. There are variations among CMC folks' final postures or execution of postures but I've yet to see any really radical posture variants among the disciples.

As to the complete syllabus it's pretty much the same as any other Yang system.Form,gungs,weapons,ph & related methods,apps,getting hit upside the head,and general abuse.That's 'bout it.

 

Not sure there,
I've seen the same movement being demonstrated by Steve Rowe, who learnt from Jim Uglow & Mary Yang (Chengfu's grand-daughter?)

A clip of one of Steve's students demonstrating the form:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht9v5S0n0pc"]Yang Chen Fu Form 1st Section - YouTube[/ame]

 

That doesn't surprise me-that move appears in older Yang forms,so I could see it popping up. His grandaughter may well have known many variations and preferred some, but still- it's not a part of the "standardized" new Yang form of Cheng-fu's.

Sorry I wasn't clear-it is a Yang system move,but was not a part of CMC's version-even among the eldest disciples,at least as far as I know. So someone "added on" to their CMC form.

P.S.-tell that guy in the vid to stop scowling-or wear shades.